HC 1001 [incorporating HC 650-i] Published on 18 September 2008 by aut - PDF document

HC 1001 [incorporating HC 650-i] Published on 18 September 2008 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited Lord-Lieutenants and High Sheriffs Sixth Report of Session 2007…08 Report, together with formal minutes, oral and written evidence Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 15 July 2008 The Justice Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of the Ministry of Justice and its associated public bodies (including the work of staff provided for the individual cases and appointments, and excluding the work of the Scotland and Wales Offices and of the Advocate General for Scotland); and administration and expenditure of the Attorney General's Office, the Treasury Solicitor's ecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office (but excluding individual cases and appointments and advice given within Current membership Rt Hon Sir Alan Beith MP (Liberal Democrat, Berwick-upon-TweedSomerton and FromeSiân James MP (Labour, Swansea EastConservative, ShreLabour, Newport EastJulie Morgan MP (Labour, Cardiff NorthRt Hon Alun Michael MP (Labour Co-op, Cardiff South and PenarthRobert Neill MP (y and ChislehurstDr Nick Palmer MP (Linda Riordan MP (Labour Co-op, HalifaxVirendra Sharma MP (Labour, Ealing SouthallAndrew Turner MP (Andrew Tyrie MP (Conservative, ChichesterDr Alan Whitehead MP (Labour, Southampton TestThe Committee is one of the departmentwhich are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Publications All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the internet at Committee staff mmittee are Roger Phillips (Cle(Second Clerk), Ruth Friskney (Adviser (Sentencing Guidelines)), Ian Thomson (Committee Assistant), Hannah Stewart, (Committee Legal Specialist), Sonia Draper (Secretary), Henry Ayi-Hyde (Senior Office Clerk), Gemma Buckland (Committee Specialist) and Jessica Bridges-Palmer (Committee Media Officer). Correspondence should be aHouse of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 819 1 Contents Report Introduction 3What they do 5How they are appointed 5High Sheriffs 9What they do 9How they are appointed 9Conclusion 12Conclusions and recommendations 13Formal Minutes 14Witnesses List of written evidence 15Reports from the Constitutional Affairs (now Justice) Committee since Session 3 1 Introduction 1. In July 2007 the Prime Minister launched his Green Paper on the Governance of The subsequent White Paper and Draft Biy the departmental Part of our appointments. Much of the motivation for change in this area has arisen from the Governments desire to remove the Prime Ministers (or other Ministers) role in 2. Although we applaud the general move to depoliticise non-political appointments and to is still responsible for ensuring that systems for all public appointments are at such posts widen opportunities and to enable the post holders as a whole to be representative of our society. It is important that this approach should be applied to largely ceremonial posts which represent the Queen and these posts, and the 3. We note the Nolan Committon Standards in Public Life, which Public Bodies and National overriding principle of appointment on merit; no appointment shall take place without first being scrutinised by a t Assessor; and the principles of Open Government must be applied to the appointments process, its workings must be transparent and information must be provided about appointments made.In our view, the broad principles set out by the Nolan Committee in relation to public appointments should be applied wherever possible to all public offices, including largely ceremonial ones which are not remunerated.4. On 29th February the Committee received a memorandum from the Ministry of Justice on appointments to official offices.ress with the Government's plans for reform of Ecclesiastical and Academic Appointments, based on proposals contained in the of the system of appointment of High Sheriffs and Lord-Lieutenants, including a description of the manner in which holders of both of the latter type of office are recruited. We subsequently took oral After the oral Dunne KG, KCVO, Chairman 1 Ministry of Justice, The Governance of Britain, Cm 7170, July 2007 2 Ministry of Justice, The Governance of BritainConstitutional Renewal, Cm 7342-I & II, March 2008 3 First Report, Cm 2850-I, July 1995 4 Ev 13 of the Association ofL, Chairman of the High Sheriffs Association 5. Mr Wills told us so we rt in the light of the evidence which we received relating to Lord-Lieutenants and High Sheriffs and the method of selection of candidates to serve in these roles. It enables us to publish the evidence with our interim assessments, pending further consultation by the minister. 5 Ev 17 6 Ev 19 7 Q 41ff 5 2 Lord-Lieutenants 6. Lord-Lieutenants are unpaid an-related costs themselves. The role is Lord-Lieutenants are the personal representatives of the Sovereign in their areas. They co-ordinate Royal visits and liaise with the Royal Households on a range of matters. Thto the voluntary, community and charitable sectors. In many partWales they chair the Lord Chancellors Advisory Committees which appoint, and oversee the conduct of, magistrates. They, or their deputies, often play a part in citizenship is, however, different (whether because of geography; population density; or local economy) and the success of the role depends on each Lord-run the Lieutenancy independently.7. Lord-Lieutenants are appoe Minister. A whether any change in the arrangements for their appointment is required, will be taken shortly. The system for appointing Lord-Lieutenants varies throughout the constituent countries of the In England the Prime Ministers Secretary for Appointments carries out extensive county or city concerned, especially amongst those who play a prominent part in the life of the community and drawing on a range of representative including the retiring Lord-Lieutenant, the areas MPs consultations have widened over the years. The purpose of these soundings is primarily to establish the local needs in terms of the Lieutenancy and . The outcome is reported to the Prime Minister, including a short list of leading candidates. In Scotland, at least 3 nongs as appropriate, to the First Minister who in turn ration is being given to extending the appointment process to include a wider range of people within the local suitable candidates for appointment. In Wales, the Secretary of State for Wales invites the First Minister to nominate a similar to that in the lead candidate to the Secretary of State who forwards this recommendation to the Prime Minister. 8 Ev 18 10 Ev 13 In Northern Ireland there has traditionally been less widespread consultation, though soundings are taken in the county or county borough concerned, including with the outgoing Lord-Lieutenant. A number of Lord-Lieutenants are due to retire in 2009 and Northern Ireland is looking at ways to increase the degree of consultation in arriving at recommendations for future appointments. The Secretary of State puts a nomination to the Prime Minister. 8. Sir Thomas Dunne, writing on behalf of the Lord-Lieutenants Association, praised the e Prime Ministers to the appointment process: The Queen appoints Her Lord- the Prime Minister and we expect this to remain the case after the implementation of the Governance of Britain. Until now, the Prime Ministers Secretary for Appointments has carried out the consultations as to whom should be appointed. The Appointments Secretary has always consulted the retiring Lord-Lieutenant but only as part of a much wider utenant has no more influence than anyone else. The ngth from this system and we welcome the authority counties. That we have been recommended to The Queen by the Prime Minister following a process ity to the Prime Ministers office increases our effectiveness.Both John Major and Tony iller on the character of person appointed Lord-Lieutenant. Their interest and changes have helped to preserve the t as a real role in support of the Crown. It is unlikely that this refreshment would have happened as well or as sensitively if the appointments process connected with the Prime Minister himself.9. As we have seen in other areas, such as the appointment of QCs or judges, the patronage Minister can be ring greater diversity had written to the Prime Minister in February [2008]to set out the Associations hopes for the characteristics of a system to replace the Appointments Secretary in the light of the Governments intention to abolish that office. ied in April to offer Sir Thomas a discussion with the Permanent Secretary but that discussion had not yet taken place.10. We raised the issue of diversity with the Mis told us that about a third of Lord-Lieutenants were women, although on When e ranks of the Lord-Lieutenants 11 Ev 18 14 Q 10 We asked him about diversity of background in terms of I think you are in very difficult territory now. I think we can be pretty precise about definitions of gender and ethnic minority communities„those sorts of things have lt to define in any kind of categorical way, so I think that would be a mistake, if I may say. However, we do have to make sure, however we define it, that we have [ƒ] properly representative Lord-Lieutenants. There are other things that are important to bear in mind for Lord-Lieutenants because of their functioy and represent Her Majesty in these communities. They tend to have to be people who are generally well rally tend to mean that they are older and they have achieved a certain status in life.11. We regret that the Minister was not inclinity outside the easy-to-measure categories of ethnic origin or sex. This approach is insufficient, especially in relation to traditional ceremonial offices. The reality is that ceremonial offices such as that of Lord-Lieutenant are associated in the public mind withpeople in society. If in credibility as representative links between the Crown and communities then this must change. 12. The Minister was unable to provide clear answers to questions relatipeople of modest financial means to carry out the function of Lord-Lieutenant. This is a real problem, as acknowledged by Sir Thomas Dunne: In this context, the [Justice Committee evidence session with Mr Wills] the issue of the cost of being a Lord-Lieutenant. (I should first say that shire administrative support from appointed clerk of the Lieutenancy. This is both cost-t because it connects the Lord-Lieutenant to a tremendous information network.) We are not, and would not is however the case that, as the Government broaden the social pool from which we are drawn, Lord-performing their duties. A scheme for the reimbursement of mileage, drivers, personal secretarial support and the maintenance of our uniforms is s policy of diversifying Lieutenancy appointments. The Ministry of Justice administers just such a reimbursement scheme, but it is out of date. The Ministry is about to uprate certain of these allowancesMarch 2007 (the first for a long time). I am grateful for the Ministrys attention, especially at a time when departmental budgets are under ever-tighter constraints. But the Ministry has not been able to respond to our request in full; nor have they yet ion for future annual consu 15 Q 14 16 Qq 16-23 revision. This is in contrast to the admirable arrangements put in place by Her Majestys Courts Service for the reimbursement of magistrates exmight agree that a proper and up-to-date scheme of reimbursement expenses is vital to the success of the Lieutenancy, especially if the Prime Minister is to continue to their historic office representing The Queen, but are able to take that office forward with continued relevance.13. We regard the principle that offices such as Lord-Lieutenant should be available to ople as being of grwever, if there is effect only people with their own considerable private financial resources will be able to hold such positions. This places far too great a restriction on the range of people from which a Lord-Lieutenant can be chosen. 17 Ev 18-19 High Sheriffs 14. The role of High Sheriffs in England and Wales is largely ceremonial. They are appointed for a year only and their work is unpaid, except for a nominal court attendance of the High Sheriffs traditional role is to welcome and entertain the judges, formerly when they arrived for the Assizes. This role has been maintained in a more limited way in the modern Crown Court system: the High Sheriff meets the judges and attends the court. A High Sheriff therefore serves as a representative of the local community to visiting judges. Many High Sheriffs have been involved in t the criminal justice system and to promote crime prevention, particularly among young people. In county constituencies the High Sheriff is the Parliamentary elections returning officer, althoughcarried out by a local authority senior officer as Acting Returning Officer. A few High Sheriffs, like Mayors in Borough constituencies, announce the result at the end of the count in a Parliamentary elections. High Sheriffs, like Lord-Lieutenants, are expected to attend in uniform at a wide considerable„are t for appointment as High Sheriff is to own property in the County.15. The selection of people suitin the future is the personal are no current plans to reform the appointment system. According to the memorandum from the Ministry of Justice, however, the Government has for some years worked with the High Sheriffsusive and transparen As a result, counties now have consultative panels, whichrepresentatives, designed to ensure that a systematic selection process can be carried on with an elemenconsistency. The county consultative panels act as a sounding board for suggestions. They hat they are designed to make sure that there is a systematic selection procedure. According to the Ministry of Justice, those nominated will almost always have a significant record of work in the county. All will do significant work for local and national charities during their year of office.16. We were told that these panels generally consist of around six to eight people: the serving High Sheriff, immediate past and future nominated High Sheriffs (two or three); a representative of the Lord-Lieutenant; and two or three members who are not connected with the Shrievalty, but who nonetheless have (or have had) a significant role within, and 18 Ev 14 21 Q 29 22 Ev 14 good knowledge of, the county or, as the case may be, have special links with, for example, sk is to choose someone to become High Sheriff in four years time; someone whom the panel considers of standing in the county; someone who afford the time and expense involved. In other words, the High Sheriffs are nting group, without any open competition or transparency in their method of appointment. There is no almost entirely of previous or future High Sheriffs.The two community representatives 17. The Ministry of Justice claimed that over the last few years there had been a marked increase in the number of women Sheriffs and Sheriffs from ethnic minorities, but that the fficient personal resources and time to devote to the various charitable and representative Sheriffs undertake would always be a people able to serve.In some, mainly urban, areas there have been appointments to the Shrievalty from a wider range of people who had sufficient means, including people frombut in many rural areas most High and some are from the same families as previous holders of the position. 18. We asked the Minister about the system for appointing High Sheriffs. His response s very important in appointing public positions generally, ƒbut there are different roles in public life and this, u would suggest as an system worked very well was the absence of letters complaining about it in his mail as a constituency Member.19. We pressed Mr Wills to think about more open processes for appointing High Sheriffs, many of whom in some counties appear to be relations or acquaintances of sparent with a body making the appointments which had some relation to the loca the police authority. We are pleased that and send us a considered response in the coming months. 20. It is not appropriate for an avily dominated by people who hold or have previously held the position, with little or no opportunity for names to be put forward from outside their own circle of acquaintances. The methods of appointing High Sheriffs do practice, and, together with the very limited support for fice, they place an unreasonable restriction on the range of people who can be considered for the post. The same considerations apply for High Sheriffs as for Lord-Lieutenants in terms of providing 23 Q 35 24 Q 36 25 Ev 14 26 Q 30 27 Q 31 is a need for reform of the system. 12 4 Conclusion 21. The positions of Lord-Lieutenant and High Sheriff have a very long history and are part of the tradition and pageantry which many people value: however, if they are to survive they must be made more up-to-date to reflect changes in society. Their roles must continue to develop and the method of appointing people must be seen to be fair and open. We note that there is evidence that the Lord-Lieutenants are making progress in this area, appointment of a more diverse e system of appointments, but that is not the whole story„if appointees cannot afford to serve because the costs are large and the allowance for expenses insufficient, then no amount of good lders. We note the evidence of the Ministry of Justice that th High Sheriff can be considerable and are personally borne by the 22. This Report is an interim statement of our views about the appointments system in relation to Lord-Lieutenants and High Sheriffs. The Minister has promised to think further paper on the possibilities. This will also include a discussion on whether the financial ty of service to those from a restrict We would expect any proposals to be at least in 28 See above, paragraph 14 29 Qq 23, 44 13 Conclusions and recommendations 1. In our view, the broad prinCommittee in relation to all public offices, al ones which are not remunerated. (Paragraph 3) 2. to-measure categories of ethnh is insufficienin relation to traditional ceremonial offices. The reality is that ceremonial offices such as that of Lord-Lieutenant are associated in the public mind with a narrow band between the Crown and communities then this must change. (Paragraph 11) 3. We regard the principle thate of people as being of great importance. However, if then in effect only people with their own ncial resources will This places far too great a restriction on the range of ant can be chosen. (Paragraph 13) 4. who hold or have previously held the position, with little or no opportunity for names to be put forward from outside their own circle of acquaintances. The methods of appointing High Sheriffs do not properly reflect modern practice, and, together with the very limited support for the costs of the office, they place an unreasonable restriction on the range of people who can be considered for the post. The same considerations apply for High Sheriffs as for Lord-Lieutenants in terms of need for reform of the system. (Paragraph 20) 14 Formal Minutes Members present: Mr David Heath Mrs Siân James Mrs Linda Riordan Mr Virendra Sharma Mr Andrew Turner Mr Andrew Tyrie Dr Alan Whitehead In the temporary absence of the Chairman, Alto the Chair for the Draft Reportproposed by the Chairman, brough, That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph. Paragraphs 1 to 22 read and agreed to. Motion made, and Question put, That the Report be the Sixth Report ofthe House. Ayes, 7 Noes, 1 Mr David Heath Mrs Siân James Mrs Linda Riordan Mr Virendra Sharma Dr Alan Whitehead Mr Andrew Turner , That the Chairrt to the House. made available, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. 134. Written evidence was ordered to be reported to the House for printing with the Report. 15 Witnesses Minister of State, andBridget Prentice MPParliamentary- Under Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice Page1 Ministry of Justice Ev 13, 16 2 Association of Lord-Lieutenants Ev 17 3 Association of High Sheriffs of England and Wales Ev 19 16 Reports from the Constitutional Affairs (now Justice) Committee since Session Session 2007-08 First Report Protection of Private Data HC 154First Special Report The Creation of the Ministry of Justice: Government Response to the Committees Sixth Report of Session 2006-07 Second Report Work of the Committee in 2007 HC 358Second Special Report Constitutional Role of the Attorney General: Government Response to the Committees Fifth Report of Session 2006-07 Third Report Counter Terrorism Bill HC 405Third Special Report Protection of Private Data: Government Response to the Committees First RepoFourth Report Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill (provisions relating to the Attorney General) Fourth Special Report Counter Terrorism Bill: Government Response to the Committees Third Report of Session 2007-08 Fifth Report Towards Effective Sentencing HC 184Session 2006…07 First Report Party Funding Government response Cm 7123First Special Report Party Funding … Oral evidence from the Lord Chancellor on the role of the Attorney General Second Report Work of the Committee 2005-06Third Report Implementation of the Carter Review of Legal Aid Government responseCm 7158Fourth Report Freedom of Information: Governments proposals for reform Government response 7 Fifth Report Constitutional role of the Attorney General Government responsesCm 7355; Sixth Report The creation of the Ministry of Justice Government response Processed:11-09-200818:37:45PageLayout:COENEW[SO]PPSysBJob:404863Unit:PAG1JusticeCommittee:EvidenceEv1Oralevidence TakenbeforetheJusticeCommitteeonTuesday3June2008MemberspresentMrAlanBeith,intheChairMrDavidHeathMrAndrewTurnerMrsSiaÃnCJamesMrAndrewTyrieAlunMichaelDrAlanWhiteheadJulieMorgan Witnesses:MrMichaelWillsMP,MinisterofState,andBridgetPrenticeMP,ParliamentaryUnder-SecretaryofState,MinistryofJustice,gaveevidence.Q1Chairman:MrWills,MsPrentice,welcome.Weareverypleasedtohaveyoubothwithus,andwearegratefultoBridgetPrenticeforcomingalongforonepartoftheproceedingsrelatingtocoroners.WearestartingwithaseriesofappointmentswhichfeatureintheGovernment'sconstitutionalproposals.Ifwecanstartwithecclesiasticalappointments,youmaybeawarethatthecommitteeinitspreviousguisesomeyearsagotookevidenceaboutecclesiasticalappointmentsandfoundthattheserviceprovidedbythecivilservantswhodealtwiththemwasmuchappreciated,particularlybyparishes.Youcancorrectmeifthisisaninaccurate,one-sentencesummary,buttheGovernment'spositionappearstobethatitwillcontinuetoprovide,throughtherelevantcivilservants,theserviceitaVordsinmattersofCrownandchurchappointments,whetherseniorappointments,diocesanbishopsor,indeed,parishesandCrownlivings,butdoesnotwishtointerposeagovernmentvieworGovernmentrecommendationonthenamewhichgoestotheCrown.ThereareanumberofconstitutionalimplicationsofthisonwhichIwantedtoseekyourview.NormallytheQueenonlymakesdecisionsontheadviceofministers.IsnotthatprincipleweakenedbythechangesiftheSovereignismakingrecommendationswithouttheadviceofministers?MrWills:No,thePrimeMinisterwillpassthenameon,sotheprincipleisupheld,butthepreviousposition,wherethePrimeMinisterwouldmakeachoice,isbeingchanged.Thatisbeingchanged.Q2Chairman:Butitisnotreallyhisadvice,isit,becauseheiscommittinghimselfinadvancetopassonthechurch'sadvice?MrWills:No.Thereisnodoubtthatitisachange,buttheprocessbywhichthechurchtakessoundings,andtherewillbeacivilservantÐadirectorgeneral,soataseniorlevelÐinvolvedinthatprocesstore¯ecttheimportancethatbishopshaveinthelocalcommunity.Thatisallpreserved,andthatnamethengoesforwardtothePrimeMinisterwhothenpassesitontotheQueen.Tothatextent,theconstitutionalproprietiesareobserved.Iwouldsuggestthatisasymbolicchange,inthesensethatitisinkeepingwiththeoveralltenorofthereformsthatwearemakingthatthePrimeMinisterannouncedon3Julylastyear,whichisaboutlimitingand,insomecases,surrenderingthepowersoftheExecutiveintheseprerogativeareasandappointmentsareas.SoIthinkisconsistentwithboththosethings.ItmaintainstheconstitutionalproprietiesandtheQueenactsontheadviceofthePrimeMinister,howeverthatadviceisreached,butalsoitisabout,asIsay,surrenderingorlimitingthepowersoftheExecutive.Q3Chairman:Doesitfollowthatthereisnoaccountabilityforthatadvice?MrWills:Accountabilityto?Q4Chairman:AccountabilitytoParliamentfortheadvicewhichhasbeengiven?MrWills:No,IthinkthePrimeMinister,asalways,remainsaccountabletoParliament.Q5Chairman:Theotherconstitutionalimplicationisthatitputs,eVectively,acommitteeoftheChurchofEnglandinthepositionthatitnominatesmembersoftheHouseofLords.Areyoucontentwiththat?MrWills:Ithinkitdoesatthemoment,but,asIthinkthecommitteeiswellaware,weareabouttoproduceourproposalsforthereformoftheHouseofLords,andthetimetoperhapsansweryourquestionwouldbeafterthoseproposalshavebeenpublished.Q6Chairman:ªAbouttoproduceº?MrWills:Soon.Q7MrHeath:TheLordChancellorhasalwaysmadeitplainhehadnointentionofdoinganythingaboutthebishops.MrWills:Thatistheposition,but,asIsay,thetimetoanswerthatparticularquestion,Ithink,wouldbewhenwehavemadeourproposalsclearabouthowweseethefutureoftheHouseofLords;soyouwillforgivemejustforafewweeks. Processed:11-09-200818:37:45PageLayout:COENEW[E]PPSysBJob:404863Unit:PAG1Ev2JusticeCommittee:Evidence 3June2008MrMichaelWillsMPandBridgetPrenticeMP Q8Chairman:Togettherecordclear,ifthepresentpositionismaintainedwiththeGovernment'sintentionsinbothrespects,thatistosaynotchangingthepositionofbishopsintheHouseofLordsandgoingaheadwiththeseparticularchangestohowtheyareappointed,itwouldthenbethecasethattheChurchofEnglandwoulddirectlyitselfnominatethemtotheHouseofLords.MrWills:No,Idonotthinkthechangesareassigni®cantasyouaresuggesting.AtthemomenttheprocesscomesforwardandthePrimeMinistermakesachoicebetweentwopeopleonthebasisthathemakesthechoice.Tothatextentthereisachange,andyouareright,butinsubstanceIdonotthinkthereisreallyasigni®cantchangefromwherewearenow.Atthemomentthebishopsarethereonthebasisofseniority.TheycomeoutoftheChurchofEnglandandtheChurchofEnglandhasanextraordinarilyimportantsaynow,today,aboutwhositsintheHouseofLordsinthosepositions,andthatcontinues.Chairman:LetusturntoLordsLieutenants.Q9MrsJames:Howwellistheappointmentssystemworkingbasically?ArethereanyplanstoreformboththeappointmentssystemandtherolesofLordLieutenants?MrWills:No,IdonotthinkthereareanyplanstoreformtheroleoftheLordLieutenants.CanIjustsayfrommypersonalexperienceinWiltshire,itisworkingextremelywell.Inowhavehadexperience,asmemberofParliamentforSwindon,oftwoLordLieutenantsdirectly.Theybothhavebeenexemplarypublicservants,extremelyactiveanddiligentandplayinganextraordinarilyvaluableroleinthecommunityandplayingaparticularroleinWiltshire,whichisaruralcounty,andSwindonisaurbanmanufacturingtownwhichoftenfeltveryalienatedfromitscounty,andbothLordLieutenantshavegonetogreateVortstotryandintegratethetwotogetherandactuallyplayedauniqueroleindoingso.So,justonapersonallevel,myexperiencehasbeenthatitisworkingextremelywell.Moregenerally,IthinktheGovernmentfeelsthatitisworkingwell.Q10Chairman:Wehavehadsomeverygoodbishopsaswell.MrWills:Therearesomeverygoodbishopswhoarealsoplayingaveryimportantroleinourcommunity,and,againfrompersonalexperience,IcansayboththebishopsinSwindonIhaveexperienceofhaveplayedanexemplaryroleaspublicservantswell.SoIthinkthesystemisworkingwell.Thereareareas,clearly,whichneedtobelookedat,andwearenowlookingatnewwaysinwhichthesystemcanevolve,becausewebelievethat,whereverpossible,thePrimeMinistershouldremovehimselffromthesesortsofappointments,andthatisaprocessthatwearenowdiscussingwithpeopleliketheAssociationofLordLieutenantsabouthowbesttodothat.Thereareissuesofdiversitywhichweneedtocontinuetolookat.SomethinglikeathirdofLordLieutenants,forexample,arewomenÐthereareveryfewBMELordLieutenants,onlyone,Ithink,frommemoryÐsothereareclearlyissuesofdiversitythatneedtocontinuetobelookedattomakesurethattheyaregenuinelyrepresentativeofthepeopletheyrepresentonbehalfofherMajesty.Q11MrsJames:IonlyhaveexperienceofoneLordLieutenantandIwouldliketopaytributetohimbecausehehasrecentlyretired,CommanderBobHasting.Hehasbeenfantastic,andIamsurethenextLordLieutenantwillbegreat,butwhathasstruckmeisthatthesegentlemen,andtheytendtobegentlemen,comefromaparticularbackgroundandaparticularclassorseriesofexperiencesinlife.ArethereanyplanstobroadenthatandtowidenthebackgroundsoftheLordLieutenancy?MrWills:Ithink,asIwassaying,thereareissuesofdiversitythatneedtobeconsidered.Theyarebeingconsiderednow,andtherehasbeenaconsiderableincreaseinthenumberofwomen,forexample,inrecentyears.Q12MrsJames:Iamtalkingspeci®callyaboutclassandbackground:maybetheArmy,theArmedForces,etcetera.MrWills:Theyhavetobeproperlyrepresentativeofthepeopletheyrepresent,andthatisaconstant.Q13MrHeath:WhichistheQueeninthiscontext.MrWills:Thepeopletheyrepresent,andtheyrepresenttheQueentoo,andthatisanissuethatmustbelookedatand,obviously,thatisoneofthethingsthatisalreadybeinglookedat.Itisnotpartofthereformsthatwearebringingforward,butyouareright,weneedtomakesurethattheyareproperlydiverse.Q14Chairman:Doesdiversityincludesocialclass?DoesitincludeextendingitbeyondthosewhoareeitherverywealthyorwhohavehadaparticularrangeÐMrWills:No.IthinkyouareinverydiYcultterritorynow.Ithinkwecanbeprettypreciseaboutde®nitionsofgenderandethnicminoritycommunitiesÐthosesortsofthingshaveprettyconsensualde®nitions.SocialclassismuchmorediYculttode®neinanykindofcategoricalway,soIthinkthatwouldbeamistake,ifImaysay.However,wedohavetomakesure,howeverwede®neit,thatwehaveaproperlyrepresentativeLordLieutenants.ThereareotherthingsthatareimportanttobearinmindforLordLieutenantsbecauseoftheirfunctions,whicharetotryandrepresentHerMajestyinthesecommunities.Theytendtohavetobepeoplewhoaregenerallywellrespected,andthatwillgenerallytendtomeanthattheyareolderandtheyhaveachievedacertainstatusinlife.Thatdoesnotnecessarilymeantheyhavetobeinthearmedservices,asyoumentioned;thereareallsortsofwaysofgettingolderandachievingdistinctioninacareer,fromallwalksoflifeand,indeed,allsocialclasses,howevertheyarede®ned.Thatis,Ithink,important. Processed:11-09-200818:37:45PageLayout:COENEW[O]PPSysBJob:404863Unit:PAG1JusticeCommittee:EvidenceEv3 3June2008MrMichaelWillsMPandBridgetPrenticeMP Q15Chairman:YouarenotseriouslysuggestingthattheexistingrangeofLordLieutenantscoversallsocialclasses,areyou?MrWills:No,Iwasnot;Iwassayingthatthereareissuesofdiversitywhicharebeinglookedatandwhichneedtocontinuetobelookedat.Q16MrsJames:Oneofthechallengesisthattheyhavetohavesubstantialprivatemeansbecausethisisnotapaidrole;theyoftenhavetofundalotofactivity.InthecircumstancesofthegentlemenIhaveknown,thereisahugearrayofworkandrightacrossalargecountylikeGlamorgan.Soarethereanyplanstomakethepositionoftherolemoreanswerable,orevaluatedinsomeway?Ifwelookatwhatthetruecostsareandwhatpeopleneedtohelpthemtakeonthisrole,ifyouhavenotgotsubstantialprivatemeansitwouldbeimpossibletodoit.MrWills:IamsurethatisoneoftheissuesthattheAssociationwillbelookingat.Theyareissuesandtheyareissuesnotspeci®ctoLordLieutenants,asyouknow;theyareissuesforallpublicservants,actually.Q17MrsJames:Areyouevaluatingwhatsortofactivitiestheygetupto?MrWills:Wedonot,asadepartment,no.Q18MrsJames:Sothereisnoformthatthey®llinÐMrWills:No,thereisnocontinuousjobassessment.Q19Chairman:AreyourelyingwhollyontheAssociationofLordLieutenants?MrWills:No;theyareanimportantplayerbutthisisanevolvingprocessatthemoment,andtheprevioussystemwheretheNumber10AppointmentSecretaryplayedakeyroleisnowchanging,butwhatisgoingtoreplaceitisstillunderdiscussion.Wearenotinapositiontosayexactlywhatisgoingtohappen,butalltheseissuesarebeingdiscussed.Q20Chairman:Whencanweexpectanoutcomefromthosediscussions?MrWills:Again,Icanonlysaysoon;Icannotgiveyouaprecisedate.Itisnotinourdepartmentalbrief.AstheCommitteewillbeaware,wehaveaco-ordinatingroleforthewholeGovernanceofBritainprogrammebutalotofitactuallyfallstootherdepartments.Q21Chairman:Idonotthinkthisdoes.Whatotherdepartmentdoesthisfallto?MrWills:Number10hasaveryimportantroletoplayinthis.Q22Chairman:Youhavethedepartmentalresponsibility.MrWills:WehaveanoveralldepartmentalresponsibilityforTheGovernanceofBritainprogramme,yes,butthereareotherdepartmentsthathaveaviewonthis.Q23DrWhitehead:Justbrie¯y,isnotasystemwhichappearstobelimitedby,essentially,theextenttowhichaLordLieutenantcanfundhimorherselfinpursuitofhisorherdutiesratheraself-limitingsystem?DoestheGovernmenthaveanyplans,perhaps,tointroduceaproportionofaVordableLordLieutenantsintothesystem?Wouldthatnotinvolve,perhaps,theallocationofsomefundingforthepurpose?Doesthathaveaknock-oneVectthatyouwouldconsidertobeappropriate?MrWills:IamnotsureIacceptthepremisethatthisisaself-limitingsystematthemoment.Ithinkitisasystemwhichischangingalready.Wehavetoseewherethesechangesgobeforewecanassesswhetheritisself-limiting.IfyoulookatthewaythatLordLieutenantsandtheDeputyLieutenantsarenowbeingappointed,itisquitediVerent.ThingsarechangingandIthinkifyoulookbackin20yearsitwillbequiteadiVerentsystem.Weneedtolookattheseissues.Ontheissueoffunding,itseemsanattractiveintellectualpropositiontomakebutIamnotsurewhattheevidenceisandIamnotsure,really,whenyoulookatthepro®leofLordLieutenants,thattheywouldnecessarilydescribethemselvesasverywealthy.TheymaybeabletoaVordsomeofthesecosts,butitmightbeatquiteconsiderablepersonalexpensetothem,andtheytendtobeolder,retired,livingonpensionsandtheymakeaconsiderablepersonalsacri®ce,someofthem.Thisisnotaneasything.WearenottalkingaboutbillionaireswhoaredoingitwithabitofsparecashoutoftheirSwissbankaccountshere;wearetalkingaboutpublicservantswhoare,asIsay,makingconsiderablepersonalsacri®ces.Iamnotsurethatitthereforefollowsthatthisisaself-limitingselectioninquitethewaythatyouaresuggesting.WhereIdoagreeisthatwehavetomakesurethattheLordLieutenants,who,asIsay,playanextremelyimportantpartinourciviclife(andIthinkallMPsareawareofthat),continuetocommandthecon®denceofallofourconstituents.Atthemomenttheydo,butdiversityandaproper,representativenatureofthesampleasawholeisgoingtobeimportantforthattocontinueinthefutureÐIthinkthereisnoquestionaboutthat.Q24Chairman:Doyouthinkthatsomebodyonamodestoccupationalpension,forexample,couldtakeonthedutiesofLordLieutenant?MrWills:Again,youhavetolookatwhichparticularcountyyouaretalkingabout,andiftherearelargedistancestotravelwhichinvolvealotoftravelcostsÐ1Q25Chairman:Doyouthinkthereisacountyinwhichsomeonelivingonamodestoccupationalpension,taxedatnormalrateandnotattheupperrate,couldactuallycarryoutthedutiesofLordLieutenant? 1NotebyWitness:Lord-LieutenantsmayclaimreimbursementfromMOJforreasonabletravelcostsandothernon-entertainmentexpensesuptoaprescribedthreshold,incurredasaresultoftheiroYcialduties.TheMinistryofJusticeadministersthesereimbursementclaims. Processed:11-09-200818:37:45PageLayout:COENEW[E]PPSysBJob:404863Unit:PAG1Ev4JusticeCommittee:Evidence 3June2008MrMichaelWillsMPandBridgetPrenticeMP MrWills:Icancertainlyconceiveofcircumstanceswherethatmightbepossible,dependingonyourexactde®nitionofªmodestº.Itispossible.Itisobviouslyeasierforpeoplewithsubstantialmeans,ofcourse,butpeoplemanagetoperformpublicserviceonmodestoccupationalpensions.AlotofthejobofaLordLieutenantispurelyrepresentative;theyturnupandsoalotofthecostsaretravelcostsandthatisit.Therearewaysinwhichthesethingscouldbemanaged.OfcourseitiseasierifyouhavesubstantialmeansÐofcourseitisÐbutfrommyexperienceIwouldsaythat,oftheLordLieutenantsIhaveexperienceof,Ithinktheymakeaconsiderablepersonalsacri®cethemselves.Thisisnoteasy.Q26MrHeath:IthinkmostofuswouldagreethatLordsLieutenantsdoagoodjobinourcommunities,althoughIamnotconvincedthattheyhavequitethesocialdiversitythattheMinisterappearstothink.Iwonderifwecouldmovetotheshrievalty.IhaveabeeinmybonnetaboutHighSheriVsandIwillfreelyadmitthatIusedtoharasstheluminariesholdingyourpostinthepast,suchasMrHoonandMrVaz,onexactlythesamesubject.CanyoujustifyforonemomenttheappointmentsystemofHighSheriVs?MrWills:Icangiveyouajusti®cation,yes.Q27MrHeath:Goonthen.MrWills:Thisisanunrewarded,ceremonialjobdonebyapublicservantÐQ28MrHeath:Whichishandedaroundfamiliesandfriendsinaself-perpetuatingoligarchy.MrWills:No,thatisnotthesituation,withallrespect.TheyareresponsibleforappointingÐQ29MrHeath:Themselves?MrWills:Ðtheirsuccessors,buttheydonow,asyouprobablyknow,haveconsultativepanelsonwhichcommunityrepresentativessitandtheyareveryimportantintheprocess.Theyaredesignedtomakesurethatthereisasystematicselectionprocedure,soitisnothandedoutinquitethewaythatyouhavedescribed.Q30MrHeath:Ithinkitwouldbeveryhardtosaythatitisentirelyaselectiononmeritfromopenapplicationlists.Wouldyouagree?MrWills:Thesethingsareveryimportantinappointingpublicpositionsgenerally,buttherearediVerentrolesinpubliclifeandthis,Ithinkmostpeoplefeel,worksperfectlywell.Iamnotsurewhatyouwouldsuggestasanalternative.Q31Chairman:Whatistheevidencefortheremarkyouhavejustmade?MrWills:WithallrespecttothisCommittee,IhavetosaythatinrelationtocomplaintsaboutHighSheriVsinmypostbaginthelasttenyearsinWiltshire,wheretherearealotofpeoplewhofeelquitestronglyaboutsomeoftheissuesthatyouhavementionedÐandIhaveaconstituencywithpeoplewho,likeMrHeath,havelotsofbeesintheirbonnetsaboutthissortofthingÐIhavehadnolettersatall.Thatismyevidenceforsayingthat.AnecdotalandbasedonSwindon,basedonWiltshire,butthatismyevidence.Q32MrsJames:Butthatdoesbegthequestionhowmanyordinarypeoplecomeintoassociationwiththeshrievalty?Ihaveagreatdealtodowithitnowinmypublicrole,butpriortothatIhadhadabsolutelynoexposuretoit.MrWills:Again,Icanonlyansweranecdotally.Thisissomethingthatdoesnotfalltothisdepartmentsoyouwillforgivemylackofgeneralexperience.Q33MrHeath:Whatisnotyourdepartment?MrWills:TheHighSheriVÐQ34Chairman:Itmustbeyourdepartment.MrWills:CanIanswerthatquestion,andthenIwillansweryourquestion.Thepointaboutthisisthatinmyexperience,actually,theydoputthemselvesaboutalot,andifyouareactiveinthecommunityÐandpeoplefromallsocialbackgroundsinSwindonareactiveinthecommunityÐyouwillcomeacrosstheHighSheriV,andtheyperformaceremonialroleanddothatsortofthing.ItisanimportantpartoflocalcommunitylifeÐnottheonlypartofitatall;theydonottakepartinallcommunityactivity,theytendtotakepartinactivitieswhicharequitespeci®callynon-political,andthatexcludesquitealotofcommunityactivity,onewayandanother.Theyareprettyactiveandpeopleseemtovaluewhattheydo.Q35Chairman:JustgoingbacktotheappointingmechanismwhichMrHeathwasquestioningyouabout,thereis,asIunderstandit,nomethodofapplicationforthisposition,unlikeothers,andtheadvisorycommitteetowhichyoureferredconsistsalmostentirelyofpreviousHighSheriVs.MrWills:Andcommunityrepresentatives.Q36Chairman:Twocommunityrepresentativeswho,asfarasweareaware,arenotelectednoraretheypubliclylistedanywhere.Arethey?MrWills:No.Q37Chairman:Sowedonotknowwhotheyare.MrWills:No.Q38Chairman:Youhavenotgotalistinthedepartment.Ifyouhave,perhapsyoucouldletushaveit.MrWills:Ihaveaskedandno,wedonot.Q39Chairman:YouaresayingtotheCommitteeyouhaveasysteminwhichtherearesomepeoplerepresentingthepublicinterestbutyoudonotknowwhotheyare.Howcanyoutellusthatthisisworking?MrWills:Well,becausethisisaceremonialoYcewhichgoesbackathousandyears,orwhatever.Itisnotpartofthedemocraticsysteminthiscountry;itisaceremonialroleÐ 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Chairman:Nobodyisdenyingthat.MrHeath:SoareLordMayors,butwedonotappointthemfrommembersofourfamily.MrTurner:Youareabsolutelyright,itisnotdemocraticÐitisjollygood!Q40Chairman:HasMrTurnercorrectlyputyourviewÐthatthisisnotdemocraticanditisagoodthingthatitisnot?MrWills:Iwasgoingtosaythatmyjudgmentwasnotavaluejudgment;itwasadescription.Ijustwanttomakethisclear:Iaminfavourofdemocraticthings,butpartofourpubliclifesometimesisnotdemocratic,andthatisjustthewayitis.Q41MrHeath:Hereisasuggestion:ifwearegoingtoretainthisveryimportantceremonialpost(andIhavegotnothingagainstthat;itispartofourhistory,absolutelyright),whydowenotgivethepoliceauthoritiestheresponsibilityforappointingfromtheirnumbersomebodytohavethepositionofHighSheriV?Theywouldthenhavethatdegreeofaccountability,theywouldbepublicservants,theycoulddothejobverywellandtheywouldful®ltheceremonialpost.Wouldthatbeasuggestionthatyouwouldcountenanceorareyouveryhappywiththearrangementwhichworksverywellatthemoment?MrWills:Iamnotacomplacentperson;IamveryhappytocountenanceitandIwillundertaketothisCommitteetotakeitawayandproduceananswertoyou.Wewillconsultproperlyandwewillcomebacktoyouinduecourse,havingtalkedtopeopleaboutit,butwewillcomebacktoyouwithanansweronourviewonthatparticularquestion.Q42Chairman:Alternatively,couldtherenotbeanopenapplicationprocessandabodymakingthedecisionwhichboresomerelationtothelocalgovernmentstructureorotherpartsofthesystem?MrWills:LetmecomebacktoyouonthegeneralpointaboutHighSheriVsonthis,becauseIthinkthepoliceauthorityisoneidea,andthereareallkindsofdemocraticmechanisms.WhydoInotcomebacktoyouwithaconsideredview,havingconsultedHighSheriVsthemselvesabouttheirviews,aboutintroducingademocraticelement,whetherindirectorofthesortsthathavebeenÐQ43Chairman:Evenmoretransparency.MrWills:Iwillcomebacktoyouwithadepartmentalview.Q44MrsJames:Anotherconsideration,perhaps,isthelengthoftime,becauseagainIhaveknownseveralHighSheriVssinceIhavebeenhereatWestminster,sinceIhavebeenelected,andtheyhaveallbeensuper,andtheyhaveallbeengreatandtheyhaveallbeenveryactiveinthecommunity,butitseemstobeayearanditisarevolvingdoor,andthereisanotheronecomingalong.ApparentlyweknowforseveralyearsinadvancewhoisgoingtobeHighSheriV.Ifwearelookingatthatandreviewingit,possiblythelengthofitandmaybebee®ngitupalittlebit.MrWills:CanIoVersomethingelsetotheCommittee?AsIhavenowundertakentoconsultonthisparticularquestion,IthinkitwouldalsobevaluabletoconsultonwhatAlanWhiteheadwassayingabouttheself-limitingaspect.Wewillaskthemfortheirexperienceofhowfartheyfeelthishasbeenalimitingfactorforthemoranin¯uencingfactorinsomeway.Wewillaskthesortofquestionsthatyouhavebeenasking,andwewillcomebacktoyou.Intermsoftimescale,canIsaythiswillprobablytakeafewmonths,aswearecominguptorecess.Iwouldnotexpectituntiltowardstheendoftheyear.Q45MrHeath:Ithasbeenaroundforhundredsofyears.MrWills:Thishasbeenhereforathousandyears.Wewillgetbacktoyoubeforethen.Chairman:Canwemovetocitizenship.Q46JulieMorgan:IwantedtoaskyouaboutLordGoldsmith'scitizenshipreviewandtoaskwhatplanshaveyougottotakeforwardtherecommendationsofthereview?MrWills:WearelookingatitnowÐagain,Iamafraiditisslightlyprematureformetosay.Theyhaveprovidedrecommendations,theyfalltodiVerentdepartments,theyareunderactiveconsideration,andwewilllookatthem.Theywillhavetobeseenaspartofthecontextoftheotherareasofworkthatwearedoing,someofwhichfalltotheHomeOYceandsomeofwhichfalltothisdepartmentintermsofthestatementofvalues,whichwewanttotakeforward.IthinkwewillbelookingatalltheseinthepieceandwewouldexpectreallytohaveaVordedaviewonhowbesttotakethemforwardbytheautumn,Iwouldsay.Itisthatsortoftimescale.WehopetoannounceourdepartmentalplansonthestatementofvaluesandtheBillofRightsbytherecess.Wewouldexpectthewholepiecetobecomeclearbytheautumn.Q47JulieMorgan:SotheBritishStatementofValuesÐthatwillbebytherecess,willit?MrWills:WeareplanningtomakeanannouncementonhowwewanttogoforwardwiththatandtheBillofRightsbytherecess.Q48JulieMorgan:IthinkLordGoldsmithlaidalotofemphasisontheimportanceofeducationintermsofcontributingtocitizenship,andIwonderedwhatevidenceistherethateducationincitizenshipdoeshelppeopletobecomecitizensinthewaythatwewouldlike?MrWills:Theevidenceisaccumulatingaswespeak.Intermsofthecurriculum,itisrelativelyrecentanditisreallytoosoontoevaluate.Q49JulieMorgan:Soithasnotbeenevaluated?MrWills:Itisbeingevaluatedallthetimebutwecannotreachanyconclusionsaboutit.OfcourseitisbeingevaluatedallthetimeandwearegettingslightlydiVerentresponses,dependingonwhatquestionsyouask.Justaxiomatically,itmustbeagoodthingtoteachyoungpeopleabouttheirhistory 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andwhatitmeanstobeaBritishcitizenbecausethatwillhelpthembecomegoodcitizensintime,anditiscertainlyhelpfulandsomethingverymuchappreciatedbynewcitizens.Ithinkpeoplewereveryscepticalaboutcitizenshipceremonieswhentheywere®rstsuggestedbutIcannotthinkofanyonewho,now,fromallsidesofthepoliticalspectrumwhodoesnotthinktheyareveryworthwhilethingstohappen.Certainlyweknowthattheyareappreciatedbythosewhotakepartinthem.Itisaveryimportant,symbolicriteofpassage.Q50JulieMorgan:OneoftheissuesthatIthinkLordGoldsmithbroughtupaboutthestatusofpeoplelivinginBritainwastheissueofasylumseekers.Ibelievehedidrecommendthathethoughtasylumseekersshouldbeabletowork.IjustwonderedwhatyourcommentaboutthatwasbecauseitdoesseemtomethatthestatusofasylumseekersintheUKisreallysomethingthatmanypeopleareconcernedabout.Iknowhedidmakesomerecommendationsaboutthat.MrWills:AsIsay,allhisrecommendationsarebeinglookedat.Q51JulieMorgan:Haveyouanycommentonthatparticularevidence?MrWills:Iwillhave.Q52JulieMorgan:Youarenotrevealinganything?MrWills:Notatthemoment.Ithinkweneedtolookatallthesethingstogether.Hehasmadeanimportantcontributiontothedebatewhichisbeingconsideredaspartofthedebate,butwe,astheGovernment,willbringforwardourproposalssoon.JulieMorgan:Thankyou.Q53DrWhitehead:CouldIturnourattentiontopost-legislativescrutiny.IappreciatethattherecentCommandPaperthathasjustbeenproducedonanapproachtopost-legislativescrutinyarosefromtheOYceoftheLeaderoftheHouseofCommons,butthepaperitselfendorsestheideathatthereshouldbesubstantiallygreaterpost-legislativescrutiny,perhapsthreeto®veyearsafteraBillhasbeenpassed,andthatanevaluationofwhatbitsoftheBillhavebeenintroducedornotintroducedanditseVectiveness,andsoon,oughttobepartoffurtherCommandPapersand,possibly,scrutinybyjointcommittees.Doyouthinkthat,inadditiontothat,theremightbesomeworkthatcouldbedoneintermsoftheprocessoflegislationitselfofmakingsurethatBillsare,asitwere,®xedtobescrutinisedpostlegislation,sothatactually,forexample,theyhaveaclearde®nitionofwhattheBillisaboutintheBill,sothatonecanscrutinisetheBillsubsequently,and,perhaps,inaddition,a(maybeself-limiting,maybeorganisationallylimited)methodofmakingsurethatgovernmentsdonotªChristmas-treeºtheirBillsanddonotaddallsortsofarbitraryprovisionstotheBillduringthepassagewhichactuallyendsupmakingthemratherdiVerentfromthatwhichtheywereoriginallyintendedtobe?Thatisthreequestionsinone.MrWills:Iwasgoingtosay,youhaveraisedseveralimportantquestions.Ofcourseitisrightthatwethinkpost-legislativescrutinyisavaluableprocess,anditwill,overtime,improvethequalityoflegislationÐwehavenodoubtaboutthat.Asalwayswiththesethings,youhavegottobecarefulhowyougoforward.Iagreewithyouitisveryimportantthatthereissomethingtomeasurethepost-legislativescrutinyagainst,andthemorethatBillsare,asyouhavedescribed,ªChristmas-treeºBillstheharderitis.Whetherthereshouldbe,asitwere,ade®nedpurposefortheBillinthesortofwaythatyouaresuggesting,Ithink,isquitediYcultsometimestobepreciseabout.IthinkMinisterswould®ndthatquitealimitingprocessanditmightbeself-defeatinginvariousways;itmaylimittheproperscopeofthepost-legislativescrutinythatwasnotperhapsintended.WhenanyBillisintroducedMinistersareusuallyprettyclearaboutwhattheirintentionsareÐsecondreadingdebatesandpublicstatements.Thereis,actually,enoughevidenceofwhatMinistersintend,usually,andtheParliamentaryprocessandtheNewsnightprocesstendtoelucidatethemevenifMinistersdonotstartoVbeingveryclear.Byandlarge,IthinkitisgenerallycrystalclearwhatgovernmentswantfromaparticularBill,soIamnotsureweneedthatkindofveryprecisestatementofpurposethatyouaresuggesting,anditmayhaveperverseconsequences.Inrelationtotheaddingonofamendments,Ithinkweneedtobeclear:thereisagoodprocessofamendmentandre®nementoflegislationasitgoesthroughtheCommitteeprocess,andthatisthewholepointoftheprocessthatBillsgothroughÐitistoimproveandre®nethelegislation.ThatiswhyitgoestoCommitteetobescrutinised,anditwouldbeactuallyworryingifnoBillswereeverchangedthroughoutthatprocess.SoIthinkwecanagreethatforgovernmentstobringforwardamendments,tohavelistenedtowhatissaidinCommitteeandtorespondtoitandtomakechangesaccordingly,whichoftenhappens,isaworthwhileprocessinitself.Ithink,probably,whatyouarereferringtoiswhengovernmentssomehow,asitwere,shoe-hornurgentbitsoflegislativebusinessintoaBillwhichtheydonotnaturally®twith,butwhichsomehowcanjustaboutbebroughtwithinitsscope(ifIcaninterpretwhatyouaresaying).Ihavealotofsympathywiththatview;Ithinkgovernmentshavetobeextremelycarefulabouthowtheydothat,andinanidealworldtheywouldneverdoit.Inanidealworldtherewouldbeplentyoftimeforlegislationandtherewouldbenourgentneedtobringlegislativeremediesforwardforurgentproblems.Thatisnottheworldwelivein.TheworldweliveinisthatParliamentarytimeislimitedÐtoolimitedÐandallgovernments®ndintensepressureonitanditmakesitvery,verydiYcultinallsortsofways.Sometimesproblemsjustcomeup,andtheydoÐwhateverpeoplesayÐsometimesneedlegislativeremedies.Governmentsdonotlegislatelightly,butsometimesthereisnoalternativetodealwithaproblembuttolegislateandthenyouneedto®ndthelegislativetime.Inanidealworlditwouldneverhappenandeverythingwould¯owsmoothlyandwe 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wouldalwayshavethelegislativetimethatwewanted,butthatisnottheworldwelivein.So,whileIhavesympathy,IthinkintherealworldwearenevergoingtogettothatidealstateofaVairs.Q54MrHeath:IamnotsureIcanlettheMinisterquitegetawaywiththat.LookatCriminalJusticeBillsoverthelastfewyears;lookattherewritingofBillsatreportstagetointroducewholenewsectionsthatwerenotevenconsideredbyaCommittee,andlookatthesubsequentremovalofthosesectionsintheLords.Surelythereoughttobeabetterlegislativeprocessthatdoesnotallowforwholenewsections,wholenewchaptersofaBill,notrespondingtourgentlegislativerequirementbutsimplybecauseMinistershavedecidedthatthisisasuitablevehicletoaddwholenewareasofworkandthenrestrictingParliamentarydebateonthatbyaprocessofprogrammingatreportstage.Thatcannotberight,canit?Itisnotjusttheworldwelivein;thisisthewaythatlegislationiscurrentlybeingorganised.MrWills:IamafraidIactuallydisagreewithyou.Ministersdonotbringforwardlegislationlightly.Q55MrHeath:LookattheCriminalJusticeBillandtheImmigrationBillthissession,whereahugeamountwasputinatreportstageandtakenoutagainintheLords,simplybecauseofexpediency.MrWills:Itisnotsimplybecauseofexpediency;Ministersbringforwardlegislationatwhateverstagebecausetheyseeaneedtodealwithaproblem.Thatiswhatwearehereforanditwouldbecompletelyremisstosay:ªWell,becausethismakestheprocessuntidyinsomewayweshouldnotbringforwardabitoflegislationorbringforwardanewclausewhichweseeaneedforº.Whathappens,often,isyoubringforward,withthebestofintentions,legislation;somethingcomesupthatneedstobedealtwithurgently,forwhateverreason,andwedealwithit.Sometimesyoudonotdealwithitinawaythatcommandsuniversalassent,andyoutryandlistenandyourespondtotheconcernsthathavebeenraised,andyouadaptandchange.Ratherthanitbeingasyoudescribedit,youmightdescribethatprocessasresponsive,sensitive,pragmaticandpractical.Thereisanothersidetothiscoin.Q56MrHeath:NobodywhoobjectivelylookedattheprocessoftheCriminalJusticeBillandtheImmigrationBillwoulddescribeitinthatway.MrWills:Ithink,maybe,whenhistorianscanseethefulldetailofallthediscussionsthatwentintotheprocessofthatBill,perhapsin20years'time,thentheymaysharemyviewratherthanyours.Q57DrWhitehead:CouldIputtheconversetoyou,verybrie¯y?Iwouldimagine,andindeedthisisalludedtointheCommandPaperonpost-legislativescrutiny,thatwhenandifpost-legislativescrutinyseriouslygetsunderwaypeoplewillbeastonishedattheextenttowhichthingsaresimplynotimplementedinBills.Indeed,Ididsomework(whichre¯ectsonmyselfmorethananythingelse)onlookingatbitsofBillsthathavenotbeenimplementedlastyearandIwasprettysurprised.Wouldyouthinkthat,perhaps,post-legislativescrutinymightbeconsideredasasalutarymethodofreferringbacktoforthcominglegislationtoeliminatebitsoflegislationuponpost-legislativescrutinythatsimplyhavenotbeenimplemented?MrWills:Icertainlythinkitcouldbeaveryvaluablefunction.IfImaysay,youhavejusthighlightedoneofthebene®tsofpost-legislativescrutiny.Ifweare®ndingoutthatthereareanykindsofsystemicreasonswhybitsofBillsarenotbeingimplemented(and,maybe,MrHeathisrightinhisdescriptionoftheprocessandIamwrong)thenwemustlearnthelessonsfromthat.Thatisthewholepointofthat.Thatispreciselywhyitcouldbesovaluable.Iagreewithyou.Q58AlunMichael:CouldItakeyouontoanothertopic,andthatisthetopicofdataprotection,whichthisCommitteehascommentedon?CanyoutelluswhatprogressisbeingmadeonthePoynterReviewandthereviewledbySirGusO'Donnellonproceduresforstorageanduseofdata?MrWills:Theyarebothabouttoproducetheir®nalreportsÐtherehavebeeninterimreportsbuttheyarebothabouttoproducetheir®nalreports,sotheyareprettyclosetoconclusion,asindeedistheWalport/ThomasReviewondatasharing.Q59AlunMichael:CanyoutellusaswellwhethertheInformationCommissionerhasstartedhisspotchecksondepartmentalcompliancewiththeDataProtectionAct?MrWills:Iwill®ndout.Icannottellyouexactlywhereweareonthat.Ifhehasnotstartedthemheisveryshortlyaboutto,butIcannottellyou.IwillwriteveryshortlyÐIwillwritebytheendofthisweek.2Q60AlunMichael:Justonthiswholeareaofdataprotection,Iamverykeenthatweremembertheneedforbalance.CouldIaskyouwhetheryoufeelthattheGovernmentnow,inrespondingtoconcernsoverdataprotectionandretentionandsafety,isabletogetthebalanceright,consideringthat,ontheonehand,whenyouhavesomeoftheissuesthatwehadoverthelastyearorso,youhaverequested(?)thatthepressandthemediaimplythatvirtuallynothingoughttobekeptandthen,ontheotherhand,inresponsetoadiVerentsetofevents,suchastheSohammurders,forinstance,thereisalmosttheimplicationinthepressandthemediathatabsolutelyeverydetailofeveryindividualoughttoberetainedand,indeed,sharedwithoutrestraint.ItisadiYcultbalance,isitnot?MrWills:Absolutely.IfImaysay,Ithinkyouhaveputitextremelywell.Therearehugebene®tsforthepublicindata-sharingandintheretentionofdataandtheeVectiveuseofdataÐweknowthatÐhugebene®t(suchasfreeschooldinners).Yougoacrossthe®eldofpublicpolicyandyoucanseethebene®tsofit.Ontheotherhand,people,quiterightly,areextremelysensitiveabouttheirpersonalprivacy,and 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quiterightly,andgovernmenthasadutytoprotectit.Wehaveneverbeencomplacentaboutthis,anditmayjustbeworthremindingtheCommitteethatwesetuptheWalport/ThomasReviewon25OctoberÐinotherwords,beforethisrashofrevelationsaboutthelossofdataÐpreciselybecauseweareawareoftheseconcerns.Itmayjustbeworthputtingthisintheoverallcontextthatthereasonwhythishasbecomesuchaliveandsalientissuenowisbecauseofthisextraordinarytechnologicalchangethathastakenplace,andithastakenplaceatgreatspeed.Itisabsolutelyclearthatboththeprivatesectorandthepublicsectorhavebeenveryslowtochangetheirmanagerialprocessestokeepupwiththetechnology.Inotherwords,wecanaccumulatehugequantitiesofdatawithoutnecessarilyputtingintheculturesthathavebeenneededtokeepthemprotectedproperly,andtousethemeVectivelyaswell.Thesearehugechallengesforallorganisations,anditisnotjustthepublicsector.Thepublicsectorisnowveryvisibleandtransparentinitsfailuresbuttheprivatesectorhasthem,actually,justasbadly,asfaraswecansee;theyarejustnotasvisibletothepublicand,bytheirnature,someofthemdonotadduptoquitesuchlargenumbers.Q61AlunMichael:However,youwouldacceptthatitisthecultureasmuchasthetechnologythatisimportant?MrWills:Thecultureisabsolutelyvitaltothisand,withoutwishingtopre-emptthesereviewsatall,oneofthingswehaveallgottolearnisjusthowincrediblyimportanttheprotectionofdatais.Weare,culturally,asorganisations,quiteusedtodealingwithmoney.WehavetodealwithdatawithexactlythesamedegreeofscrupulousnessandsensitivityaswedealwithmoneyÐitisthatprecious.Thesearelessonsthathavetobelearnt;andtheyarebeinglearnt.Thepointofthesereviewsistoentrenchnewprocessesandnewcultures,andwewilldriveitforward.Thisisgoingtobeacontinuingchallengetous;thetechnologyisnotgoingtostopandwehavetokeepadapting.Oneofthekeylessonsthatwehavelearntalreadyistheneedforreallyhigh-levelvigilance;ithastostartatthetopofanorganisationandpermeateallthewaythrough,sothisculturepermeateseverynookandcranny.Q62AlunMichael:Iamsurewewillreturntothiswhenweseethosereports.CanIturntoanotherissuewhichisinthedraftQueen'sSpeech,thatoftheproposedCoronersBill?Firstly,canyoutelluswhatconsultationhasbeenheldwithrepresentativesofcoronerssincelastyear?BridgetPrentice:Sincelastyear.ImeettheCoroners'Societyonafairlyregularbasis,andIhavemetindividualcoronersfromtotime(infact,IthinkIamduetomeettheCoroners'Societyagainthisweek,asithappens),aswellaspeoplerepresentingCoronerSupportOYcersandsoon.Soaregulardialoguegoesonbetweenmyself,thedepartmentandtheoYcialsandthecoroners.Q63AlunMichael:Ifyouaremeetingthemthisweek,perhapsifyoucannotimmediatelyanswerthenextquestionyoucouldaskthem!ArethecoronersgenerallycontentwiththeGovernment'sproposalstobeincludedintheBill?BridgetPrentice:Isupposetheshortanswertothatis:giveme24hoursandIwillgiveyouamoreaccurateanswer.Yes,Ithinktheyare.SincetheCoronersBillwas®rstmooted,whichwasacoupleofyearsagonow,therehasbeenongoingconsultation,andindeedthingsweretakenoutoftheoriginaldraftBillthatpeoplefeltwerenotappropriateandotherthingsputin,andsoon.Weareupgrading,forexample,theCharterfortheBereaved,whichwehopetobeabletodealwithevenpre-theBillcomingin.Sothereisconstantdialoguewiththecoroners,withbereavedfamiliesandwithothersastowhatwecandopre-legislation,aswellaswhatisactuallyintheBillitself.Asyouknow,ofcourse,theBillnowincludesworkfromtheDepartmentofHealthindeathcerti®cation.Thatisthetwodepartmentsworkingverycloselytogether,whichIknowthisCommitteehasbeenbangingonaboutforsometime.Q64AlunMichael:Obviously,thequestionofthelegislationisonepartbutthequestionofresourceshascomeupcontinuallyinrelationtocoroners'courts.WillextraresourcesbeprovidedforthecoronerssystemaspartofthereformstobeimplementedintheBill?IaskthatquestionbecauseitisdiYculttoseehowthesystemcanbeimprovedwithouttheresourcesbeingavailabletodoso.BridgetPrentice:Ofcourse,theresourcesareprovidedatlocallevel.Ithinklocalauthoritiesandpoliceauthoritiesnowaremuchmoreawareoftheimportanceofthecoroners'serviceandaremakingappropriateresourcesavailable.Itistruethattherearenot,forexample,speci®ccoroners'courtsineverysinglearea,andsomecoronersusethecouncilchamberorotherappropriatevenues.Iwouldnotnecessarilygoasfarassayingthateverytimeyouchangethelaworyoubringtogether,aswearedoingintheCoronersBill,someoftheideasthatpeoplehaveputforwardaboutthewaytheserviceshouldbeconductednecessarilymeansyouhavetoincrease®nancialresources.Alotofithastodowithchangingmindsets,andthatappliesnotsimplytocoroners,whoIthinkareverymuchinsupportofwhatishappeninghere,butalsothesetting-up,forexample,ofaChiefCoronerwhowillbeabletoensurethatthereisabasicstandardbeingprovidedatlocalauthoritylevel.ItwillmakeadiVerence,butitdoesnotnecessarilymeanhugeamountsofextra®nancialresourcegoingin.Iknoweverybodywouldlovetoseemoremoneygoingin,butIcannotguaranteethat.Q65AlunMichael:Iamtemptedintwodirections.Oneisthat,obviously,whenapieceoflegislationcomesforwardyouhavetoexplaintoParliamentandwilltheresourcestodelivertheintentions.Obviously,thatwillbeapointofscrutinyatthe 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pointthattheBillcomesforward.Areyousatis®edthatyouaregoingtobeinapositiontowillnotjustthelegislationbuttheresourcesthatgowithit?BridgetPrentice:Yes,Iam,becausesomuchthoughtandworkhasgoneintothedetailofputtingthedraftBilltogetheroveraperiodoftimethatIthinkweareabletobequitecon®dentthatproperresourcingwillbemadeavailableandthatwewillbeabletoseethekindofservicethatpeoplehavebeendesperatelyneedingforsometime.Q66AlunMichael:YoureferredtotheroleoftheChiefCoroner,andyoudescribeditasanimportantone,anditisobviouslyanimportantinnovation.WhatactualpowerswilltheChiefCoronerhave,because,surely,powerswillbeneededinorderfortheroletobeeVectiveinful®llingthefunctionthatyouhavejustdescribed?BridgetPrentice:TheChiefCoronerwillbeabletosetthestandards.Hewillbeabletoensure,forexample,thatthereisconsistencyacrossthecoronialservicethroughoutthecountry.Thatmaymeandirectdialoguewithcoronersbutitmayalsomeandialoguewithlocalauthoritieswherehefeelsthatthelocalauthority,orthepolicyauthority(whoeverisleadinginaparticulararea)isnotperhapsdoingasmuchasitcouldtogivetheservicetherightlevelofsupport.Sohewillhavethatpowerand,ofcourse,hewillpublish(Ishouldnotjustsayªheº,itcouldbeashe)ÐQ67Chairman:Yousaidªpowerº.Isthatapower?Areyounotdescribingaco-ordinatingfunctionoraroleofpersuadingauthoritiestospendmoremoneyratherthanapower?BridgetPrentice:Ithinkitismorethanaroleorafunction.ThepublicationbytheChiefCoronerofwhatheorshewouldexpecttoseeinaparticulararea,orifhefelttherewasafailinginanarea,willbeaveryimportantleverageonalocalauthoritytoensurethatthecoronerisgiventheproperservicethatheorsheneeds.Q68AlunMichael:Evenifitisresidual,istherenotanecessityforsomepowerthere?Wehaveseenthecapacitytocriticisethelackofresourcesanddelaysthatfollowfromthelackofresources,andsoon,andthatdoesnotseemtohaveledtothenecessaryresourcescomingintoplace.Isthisamatterthatyouareconsideringfurther?BridgetPrentice:ItiscertainlysomethingthatIwouldbepreparedtoconsiderfurther.Ithink,byinference,youaretalkingabouttheOxfordshiresituation,andthedepartmentdidindeedgiveextra®nancialbackingforaveryparticularissueindealingwiththebacklogthathadaccumulatedinOxfordshireover,particularly,militaryinquests.Q69AlunMichael:Thatwasveryparticular,asyousay,andextra®nancewasprovided,buttherehavebeencriticismsoflackofresourcesanddelaysinalessdramaticwayinavarietyofcircumstances.BridgetPrentice:ThediYcultywithgivingablanketresponsetothatisthatbecauseoftheverynatureofaninquest,andthefactthatyouaredealingwithpeopleduringwhatisaverysensitiveandtraumaticexperienceforthefamilies,itisdiYculttosay,ingeneralterms,thatthereissomethingsystematicthere.Theremaybeindividual,diVerentreasonswhythereisadelay.Forexample,sometimesthefamiliesthemselvesaskfordelaysoninquestsforreasonsthattheyareperfectlyentitledto;theremaybeotherreasonsÐonewouldbeiftherewasacriminalcasebeingtakenatthesametime,andsoon.Idonotthinkitisaneasythingtosaythereisageneralpositionthatyoucantakeonit.Itcanbeveryindividual.Q70AlunMichael:Iwouldacceptthattherearemorereasonsfordelaythansimplythatofresources,butIthinkthathasbeenanelementinthedelaythathascausedalotofanguishforfamilies.Therefore,IthinkthequestionoftheroleoftheChiefCoronerinobviatingthatsortofprobleminthefutureisquiteimportant,whichIthinktheCommitteewouldwanttoreturnto.CouldIaskoneotherthingonthequestionofresources?IthinkmanypeoplehavewatchedwithfascinationborderingonbewildermentthequiteextraordinaryamountofresourcesthatwentintotheinquestofPrincessDiana.Doyouhaveanycommentonthequestionofwhetherthoseresourcesmighthavebeenbetterdirectedtodealingwiththemanyordinaryinquestsupanddownthecountrythatwerewaitingtobedealtwith?BridgetPrentice:Icanperfectlyunderstandwhythegeneralpublicwouldlookattheamountofmoneythatwasspentonthatparticularinquest,comparedtowhatishappeningelsewhere.Itisaperfectlyunderstandablepositionforpeopletotake.WhatIhavetosayisthat,asfarasthedepartmentisconcerned,itwasourdutytoprovidethatinquest.Whenadeathoccursabroadthenwemustprovideforaninquesthere.Sothathappened.Ofcourse,thatparticularinquestwasalwaysgoingtobeonethatwasgoingtogetagreatdealofpublicity;itbecameclearnotverylongintotheinquestthatthecoronerfeltthatheneededtogetlotsofinformationfromavarietyofpeople,includingpeoplecomingfromabroad,andsoon,andIdonotthinkitwouldbeappropriateformetocommentanyfurtheronthatÐotherthanthatasfarasthedepartmentisconcernedwewereobligedtomakesurethattheinquestwasconducted.Q71AlunMichael:PerhapstheChiefCoronermightsaveusfromthatinthefuture.BridgetPrentice:TheChiefCoronermaywellgiveadiVerentperspectiveinthefuture.Q72Chairman:Onanotheraspectofit,whyisitappropriatetobringforwardprovisionsrelatingtocoronersinlegislationcurrentlybeforetheHouseratherthaninthisBill?BridgetPrentice:Thatisbecause(andyouarereferringtotheCounter-TerrorismBill)theissuesthathavecomeupintheCounter-TerrorismBillneedtobedealtwithnow.TheHomeOYcefeltthatitwasappropriatethatweputthatbitoflegislationintotheCounter-TerrorismBillratherthanwait, 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becauseatthetimethatthatcameupasanissuewedidnotknowtherewasgoingtobeaCoronersBillinthedraftlegislativeprogramme.TheurgencyofitwasthereasonitwasputintheCounter-TerrorismBill.Q73MrHeath:Infact,presumably,theproposalsintheCounter-TerrorismBillwillneedamendmentinthecontextoftheCoronersBill,becausetherewillbeanewentityintheChiefCoronerwhowillhaveaninvolvement,Iwouldpresume,intheformulawhichtheGovernmentarenowadopting,whichistheoneIsuggestedinCommitteeÐsoIamquitepleasedaboutthat.IwantedtoaskatotallydiVerentquestion,intermsofmilitaryinquests,whichiswhetherthebacklogofmilitaryinquestsandthequiteproperconcernsthathavebeenexpressedoverthelastyearorsoarere¯ectedinthenewlegislationatall,orwhetherthereisanynewprovisionformilitaryinquests.BridgetPrentice:Icangiveyousome®guresonthestateofthebacklognow,andindeedmilitaryinquestsingeneral.Ithink,probably,thereallysigni®cantissueintheCoronersBillisthattherewillnotbetheobligationfortheinquesttotakeplaceinthejurisdictionofthecoronerwhereabodyisreturnedtothiscountry.That,clearly,hasbeenpartoftheprobleminbuildingupÐQ74MrHeath:Howwillthejurisdictionbedetermined?BridgetPrentice:Iwouldliketoseethejurisdictionbeingthemostappropriateplaceforthefamily,orwherethepersonhaslived.Ihavebeenreally,reallyconcernedaboutthefactthatfamilieshavehadtotravelupanddownthecountryinordertoattendinquests.Iknowthatboththecoronersandthemilitaryhavealwaystriedtobeassensitiveaspossibleindealingwiththatbut,nevertheless,itisanaddedburdenforafamilyatavery,verydiYculttime.Sohavinganinquestthatisfarclosertohome,Ithink,justmakesitmuchbetter.Q75MrHeath:WillthatincludetransfertoothernationaljurisdictionswithintheUnitedKingdom?BridgetPrentice:IfyouarereferringtoScotlandÐQ76MrHeath:NorthernIrelandwouldbethesame.BridgetPrentice:Scotland,ofcourse,hasadiVerentsystementirely;ithasafatalaccidentinquirysystem,andthereisnoprovisionwhatsoeverinScotlandforinquests.WeareindiscussionwiththeScottishExecutiveaboutthisandIdothinkthattheyneedtomovemorequickly.PeopleinScotlandwouldexpect,nowtheyhavebeenusedtohavingtheinquestsystem,albeittheyarehavingtocometoEnglandtoreceivethatsystem,asimilarsysteminScotland.Itisnotformetomakethatdecision,ofcourse,butIwouldliketothinkthattheywouldconsiderthatveryseriouslyindeed.Q77Chairman:Ingeneralorsimplyinrelationtomilitarydeaths?BridgetPrentice:Ithink,probably,ingeneral.InEnglandandWales,ifapersondiesabroad,wehavetohaveaninquestinEnglandandWales.IthinkthesystemoughttobethesamethroughouttheUnitedKingdom.Thatismypersonalopiniononthesubject.Q78Chairman:Butnot,sofar,theopinionoftheScottishExecutive?BridgetPrentice:Notsofar,butperhapstheywilllistentoyourdeliberationsandreconsider.Chairman:CanweturntoMichaelWillsforabriefupdateonanumberofissuesonwhichonecouldspeakatgreatlength?Q79MrTurner:MayIaskonequestion:itsaysthattheCoronersBillªcreatesanewNationalCoroners'Service...movingtowardswhole-timecoronersworkingtonationalminimumstandardsº.ItsaysªmovingtowardsºÐIamhopingitwillneveractuallygetthereifthismeanstherecannotbecoronersontheIsleofWight.Wouldthatbeyourproposal?BridgetPrentice:HowwouldtherenotbecoronersontheIsleofWight?Q80MrTurner:Youwillnotbeableto®llone'stime.BridgetPrentice:Idonotlikethephraseªwhole-timeº;mostofuswouldsayªfull-timeºcoroners.Iknowthatisthephrasethatweuse,andIhaveaskedthemtochangethat.Theideawillbetohaveafull-timeservice,butthatdoesnotmeanthatcoronerscouldnotbepart-timeifitwasappropriate.Q81Chairman:Isthelegislationgoingtoprecludepart-timecoroners,eveninareaswherethatistheonlywaytoÐBridgetPrentice:No,itisnot,buttheideaistomoveasclosetoafull-timeserviceaspossible.Therewillalwaysbetheoddexception,andtheIsleofWightmaybethatkindofexception.Thereisnoreasonwhyafull-timecoronercouldnotgototheIsleofWighttodoaninquestÐQ82MrTurner:Thatisnotgoodenough.Iamsureyouwillunderstand.BridgetPrentice:Youwantyourownfull-timecoronerontheIsleofWight?MrTurner:Notfull-time,butontheisland.Q83Chairman:ThisisanissuethatcameupwhentheCommitteeoriginallyconsideredthe®rstBill,andthediscussionswehadthenhighlightedthatinsomewaysifyoudonotmakeuseofpart-timecoronersyouaredependentuponacoronercomingfromaverylongdistanceaway,andwhomayonlybeabletodosoinfrequently,withtheresultthatinquests,andtheabilitytospeaktothecoroner,orindeedtohaveacoroner'soYce,arealldeniedtomoreremoteareas.BridgetPrentice:Theideaistomoveascloselytowardsafull-timeserviceaspossible.Therewillalwaysbeexceptions,andIdoliketothinkthatgiventhediscussionsthatwehavehadinthepast 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coupleofyearsinputtingthisBilltogetherwearebuildinginthe¯exibilitythatwillbeneededtocoverthoseexceptionalcircumstances,includingtheIsleofWight.Q84MrTurner:Whatprogressisbeingmade,MichaelWills,ontheHouseofLordsreform?MrWills:WewillshortlybepublishingaWhitePaper.Q85Chairman:Soon?MrWills:Soon.Q86Chairman:Wehavealonglistofªsoonsº!MrWills:Iknow.Thereisalothappeningverysoon.Chairman:ªVerysoonº!.Q87MrTurner:Verysoon.Thatisthissideofthesummer,Iassume.MrWills:Yes.Thatistheintention.Q88Chairman:Withthelegislationtocomewhen?MrWills:Afterconsultation.Whatweproposeisthatafteraperiodofconsultationwewillcomeupwithourreforms.Ourproposalwillbethatwewillputthatinourmanifestocommitment.Wehavealwaysmadeitclearthatweverymuchhopethatthiscanbedoneonaconsensual,cross-partybasis;thatisthebasisonwhichthecross-partytalkshavebeenproceeding.Wehopetherewillbeagreementonthatpackageofreformsandthateverypartywillputthatintheirmanifesto,sothatwhatevertheoutcomeofthenextelectionwecan,®nally,movetoconcludingaprocessthathastaken,probably,gettingonforahundredyearstocomplete.Q89DrWhitehead:Iamanticipatingareplytothisquestion.Howsoondoyouthinkwecanexpecttoseelegislationbroughtforwardtoreformthesystemofpartyfunding?BridgetPrentice:Iamnotgoingtousethewordªsoonº,ifIcanavoidit.Imminently.Doesthathelp?Wehavehaddetaileddiscussionswithallofthepoliticalparties,althoughtheConservativePartywalkedoutofthediscussionslatelastyear,andIhavehadmorerecentdiscussionswiththepartiesinNorthernIreland,andsoon.Obviously,wehavetogothroughtheParliamentaryprocessofCabinetclearance,etc,butIwouldliketothinkthat,reallyimminently,thatwillbeÐQ90DrWhitehead:Thatsuggestsªverysoonindeedº.BridgetPrentice:Howsoonisªverysoonº?Chairman:Imminently.Q91DrWhitehead:Verysoon.BridgetPrentice:IhopeIamnotsettinganyharesrunningifIsayIwouldliketothinkbeforetheendofthismonth.Q92MrHeath:Legislation,ortheWhitePaper?BridgetPrentice:TheWhitePaper.Q93DrWhitehead:SolegislationinthenextÐBridgetPrentice:Legislation,again,isintheprogrammeoftheQueen'sSpeech.Q94DrWhitehead:Youmentionedthestateofnegotiationsbetweenthepartieswhichhasinvolvedonepartywalkingoutofthenegotiations.Doesthefactthatthatpartyhasnotwalkedbackintonegotiationshaveanybearingwhatsoeveronthespeedwithwhichlegislationmightbeintroduced?BridgetPrentice:That,ofcourse,isentirelyuptothatparticularparty,inthatsense.TheSecretaryofStatehasbeenverykeen,rightly,thatwetrytodothisbyconsensus,andIthinkthereisbroadconsensusonanumberoftheissues,butitwillbeuptotheConservativePartytodecidewhethertheyaregoingtocomewiththerestofParliamentonthisorwhethertheyaregoingtobeobstructiveornot.Ofcourse,thatisapoliticaldecision,really,forthem.Q95Chairman:Finally,IwanttoaskMichaelWillsabriefquestionabouttheBillofRightsandResponsibilitiesonwhichitproposestoconsulttheBritishpeople.Justlookingattheresponsibilities,willanyoftheseresponsibilitiesbeenforceableinanywaywhatsoever?MrWills:Thereareresponsibilitiesthatareenforceablealready,andpeoplehavedutiestoobeythelawandpaytax,andsoon.Wewanttoconsultonthisbut,primarily,whenwetalkaboutresponsibilities(andIshouldmakeitclear,becausethisquestiondoescomeupfrequently,thatwedonotseerightsasbeingcontingentonresponsibilities;theyareintegrallylinked)allwearetryingtofocusonisthefactthatintheEuropeanConvention,intheHumanRightsAct,actually,verymanyoftherightsareinextricablylinkedwithresponsibilities,andrightlyso.Thatisnotoftenunderstood,andthereisaproblemofpublicperceptionwiththeHumanRightsActand,indeed,withtheEuropeanConvention.Peoplebelievethatsomehowthisisalicenceforpeople,anditisnot;bothrightsandresponsibilitieshavetobeseeninthecontextofmutualobligation.Sowearenotthinkingofnewenforceableresponsibilitiesnecessarily.Wemaywanttoexplorecertainthings,althoughwearenotnecessarilyinfavourofthemourselves.Theremaybeadutytovotethatwewanttoexplorewithpeople.ItisnotsomethingtheGovernmentisproposingbutpeopledorecommenditfromtimetotime.Wehavetobeopentowhatpeoplecomebacktouswithinthisconsultation.Thatconsultationisgoingtostart,Iamafraid,soon.Again,wewanttopublishourproposalsbeforetherecess,justtogivealittlebitmorede®nitiontotheCommittee.Q96Chairman:SoitwillbeaboutaBillofRightswhichareenforceable,andResponsibilitieswhichdonotaddtothelistofexistingcriminaloVencesorthingsforwhichthereisacivilpenaltyifyoudonotcarrythemoutÐlikepayingforyourtelevisionlicence? Processed:11-09-200818:37:45PageLayout:COENEW[E]PPSysBJob:404863Unit:PAG1Ev12JusticeCommittee:Evidence 3June2008MrMichaelWillsMPandBridgetPrenticeMP MrWills:Wearenotnecessarilytalkingonlyaboutnewrightswhichareenforceableinthatway.ThereisaspectrumoflegaleVectthatyoucangivetorights,justsoweareclearaboutthis:therearedirectlyjudicablerights,thereareinterpretativeprinciples,ifyoulike,andthenthereisdeclaratory,whichhasverylittlelegaleVectand,insomecases,noneatall.Thatisoneofthethingsthatwearegoingtobelookingat,andwewillbeputtingforwardourviewsonthis.Again,asindeedwithpartyfundingandwithHouseofLordsreform,thisispotentiallymajorconstitutionalreform.Itisveryimportant,asfaraspossible,thatyouproceedonaconsensualbasis,andtherewillbeintensiveconsultationonthis.Wewantpeople'sviews.Thisisnot,asitwere,astraightforwardgovernmentwhitepaperwhichweareputtingoutandgoingthroughin12weeksandthenputtingthroughlegislation;asfaraspossiblewewanttobuildtheconsensusaroundthis.Q97MrHeath:Itseemsveryoptimistictoviewanydeclaratorystatementsinstatutesasbeingnon-justiciable.HowareyougoingtoavoidacompetitionwiththeHumanRightsActandtheeventualconfusioninthecourtsasaconsequenceofrecodifyingrightsintwodiVerentways?MrWills:Wearenot,becausethiswillbuildontheHumanRightsActandmakeclearitsplaceinit.Intermsofthejusticiability,thereisaspectrumoflegaleVect.InsomeconstitutionsÐtheIrishconstitution,forexampleÐtheyhavedeclaratoryprinciples,butthereisaspeci®cousterwhichsaysquitespeci®callyªthiscanhavenoeVectinthecourtsº;ªthishasnolegaleVectº.Youcanhaveinterpretativeprinciples,ifyoulike,wherebyifacaseisraisedinthecourtsthecourtscouldtaketheseprinciplesintoaccount,buttheydonotgiverisetoadirectcourseofactionthemselves.ThentherearedirectlyjusticiableeVects,suchasyoucanhaveundertheHumanRightsAct.Weareverycautiousaboutcreatingabatteryofnewrights.Q98MrHeath:Quiterightlyso,inmyview.Isimplydonotunderstandhowyouaregoingtoavoidmoreconfusioninthisarea. MrWills:OneofthepurposesofbringingforwardaBillofRightswouldbetomakesurethatpeopleareawareoftherightsandresponsibilitiestheyalreadyhave.Becauseofthenatureofourconstitution,whichisamixtureofcommonlawandstatute,andsoon,peoplearenotalwaysawareoftherightstheyhave.Theyhaveeconomicrights,whichtheyarenotawareof;theyhaverightstohealthcare,whichtheyarenotawareof.Thereareallsortsofrights.Theactofcodifyingthoserightsisinitselfenormouslyvaluableifyoubelieveinthevalueofacohesivesociety,ofknowingwhatwesharetogethertherightsofcitizens.Fullyempoweredcitizensarecitizenswho,byde®nition,mustbeconsciousoftherightsthattheyalreadypossess.Idonotthinkthatistrueofmanyofourcitizenstoday.Thatisimportant.Inexactlythesameway,togobacktothequestionofresponsibilities,theseresponsibilitiesareowedtopeopleandthatsortofcommunitarianapproachisveryimportanttous,andIthinkyouwillseewhenweproduceourpapereventuallyitisgoingtobeaveryimportantstrandinit.Chairman:Weareatthebeginningofaverylongandverycomplexdiscussion,whichIdonotthinkweshould,reallyÐQ99MrHeath:CouldIaskonespeci®cquestion,veryquickly,justtoaskifthedepartmentisdoinganyfurtherreviewoftheHumanRightsActtolookattheinterpretationbythecourts.Itdidsomethingofthissortacoupleofyearsago,butitseemstobealogicalpartofthepreparationforthis.MrWills:Wearenotgoingtorepeattheexercisewedidacoupleofyearsago.Thatwasafairlythoroughandcomprehensiveexercise.Wearenotplanningtorepeatthatbutwedo,ofcourse,keepitunderreview,andwhenHouseofLordsdecisionsarereached,forexample,ontheYLcase,ofcourse,weneedtotakecognisanceofthem.Wehavealreadytakenactioninresponsetothatjudgmentandwewillbelookingfurtherathowwedealwiththat.Caselawevolvesandwehavetoevolvewithit.Chairman:Thankyoubothverymuchindeed.Welookforwardtohearingfromyouonsomeofthemattersthatyoupromisedtogetbacktouson.Thankyouverymuch. Processed:11-09-200818:38:38PageLayout:COENEW[SO]PPSysBJob:404863Unit:PAG2JusticeCommittee:EvidenceEv13Writtenevidence MemorandumsubmittedbytheMinistryofJusticeTheCommitteehasaskedforamemorandumonappointmentstooYcialoYcescoveringprogressontheGovernment'splansforreformofEcclesiasticalandAcademicAppointments,basedonproposalscontainedintheGovernanceofBritainGreenPaper,paragraphs57±68;andGovernmentpolicyonreformofthesystemofappointmentofHighSheriVsandLord-Lieutenants,includingadescriptionofthemannerinwhichholdersofbothofthelattertypeofoYcearerecruited.EcclesiasticalAppointmentsSincetheGreenPaper,theChurchofEnglandhasbeendevelopingandconsultingonnewsystemstoreplacethecurrentones.TheChurch'sGeneralSynodvotedonproposalson14Februarywhich,interalia,invitetheGovernmenttoagreethatthereshouldbeacontinuingroleforaseniorcivilservantintheselectionprocessforseniorchurchappointmentsintheCrown'sgiftandthattheGovernmentshouldcontinuetoprovidethenecessarystaVworktosupporttheCrown'sparochialpatronageresponsibilities.WenowawaitaformalrequestfromtheArchbishopofCanterbury,followingthisvote.TheChurchdidnotseektooverturnthePrimeMinister'sdeclaredwishnolongertohaveachoicebetweencandidates.AcademicAppointmentsThePrimeMinister'soYcehasconsultedalltheacademicinstitutionstowhichtheCrownmakesappointmentsinEnglandandaskedthemtoconsiderdevisingnewarrangementswhichwouldaccordwiththeGreenPaper'sintentions.The®nalisationoftheirproposalsareofcoursesubjecttoeachinstitution'sowntimetablesforreachingdecisionsonsuchmatters.Allhavereachedorareclosetoreaching®nalagreementandtheGovernmenthopestohaveheardfromalltheinstitutionsformallyinthenearfuture.Wedonotenvisageanysigni®cantdiYcultyinnewarrangementsbeingputinplace.Lord-LieutenantsTheroleoftheLord-LieutenantTheroleofaLord-Lieutenantisavoluntaryone.Lord-Lieutenantsareunpaidalthoughcertainlimitedexpensesareavailable.Butmost,ifnotall,Lord-Lieutenantswill®ndthemselvesbearingcertaincoststhemselves.Theroleisapracticaloneaswellasceremonialandhasbeen,andstillis,expandinginscopeandactivity.Lord-LieutenantsarethepersonalrepresentativesoftheSovereignintheirareas.Theyco-ordinateRoyalvisitsandliaisewiththeRoyalHouseholdsonarangeofmatters.Theygiveactivesupporttothevoluntary,communityandcharitablesectors.Theypromotethehonourssystem,andTheQueens'Awards,includingassistingthegovernmentinensuringmeritoriouscandidatesarehonoured.Theysupportthearmedforcesandtheirreserves.InmanypartsofEnglandandinWalestheychairtheLordChancellor'sAdvisoryCommitteeswhichappoint,andoverseetheconductof,magistrates.AndtheyfromtimetotimeassociatethemselveswithcertaingovernmentinitiativesÐforexampletheyortheirdeputiesnowoftenplayapartincitizenshipceremonies.ThepresentappointmentsprocessLord-LieutenantsareappointedbytheQueenontheadviceofthePrimeMinister.A®naldecisiononwhetheranychangeinthearrangementsisrequired,inthelightoftheGreenPaper,willbetakenshortly.EnglandInEnglandthePrimeMinister'sSecretaryforAppointments,onthePrimeMinister'sbehalf,currentlycarriesoutextensiveconsultationsinthecountyorcityconcerned,especiallyamongstthosewhoplayaprominentpartinthelifeofthecommunityanddrawingonarangeofrepresentativebodiesandotherinstitutions,includingtheretiringLord-Lieutenant,thearea'sMPsandlocalauthorities.Theconsultationshavewidenedovertheyears.Thepurposeofthesesoundingsisprimarilytoestablishthelocalneedsintermsofthelieutenancyandtobuildupalistofpossiblecandidatesforconsiderationforthepost.TheoutcomeisreportedtothePrimeMinister,includingashortlistofleadingcandidates. 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ScotlandInScotland,thecurrentpositionisthatatleastthreenominationsmustbesubmittedbytheout-goingLord-Lieutenant,havingtakensoundingsasappropriate,totheFirstMinisterwhointurnmakesarecommendationtothePrimeMinister.Considerationisbeinggiventoextendingtheappointmentprocesstoincludeawiderrangeofpeoplewithinthelocalcommunitywhomightbeexpectedtoholdaviewastosuitablecandidatesforappointment.WalesInWales,theSecretaryofStateforWalesinvitestheFirstMinistertonominateasuccessorcandidate.TheconsultationprocessinWalesisbroadlysimilartothatinEngland,andendswiththeFirstMinisterrecommendingtheleadcandidatetotheSecretaryofStatewhoforwardsthisrecommendationtothePrimeMinister.NorthernIrelandInNorthernIrelandtherehastraditionallybeenlesswidespreadconsultation,thoughsoundingsaretakeninthecountyorcountyboroughconcerned,includingwiththeoutgoingLord-Lieutenant.AnumberofLord-Lieutenantsareduetoretirein2009andNorthernIrelandislookingatwaystoincreasethedegreeofconsultationinarrivingatrecommendationsforfutureappointments.ItistheSecretaryofStatewhoputsanominationtothePrimeMinister.InallfourcountriesoftheUK,therangeofcandidatesappointedhasbeen,andcontinuestobe,widenedwithappointmentscomingfromawiderrangeofbackgrounds.TheAppointmentofHighSheriffsofEnglandandWalesTheRoleoftheHighSheriVTodayTheroleofHighSheriVsthesedaysislargelyceremonialandrepresentative.Theyareappointedforayearonlyandtheirworkisvoluntaryandunpaid,exceptforanominalcourtattendanceallowance.ThegeneralexpensesoftheoYceÐwhichcanbeconsiderableÐarebornepersonallybytheholder.ThesolelegalrequirementforappointmentasHighSheriVistoownpropertyintheCounty.ThesystemofappointingSheriVsre¯ectstheantiquityoftheoYce.Althoughitisacceptedthatthisdoesnotre¯ectbestpracticeinpublicappointments,butnoristheoYceofSheriVatypicalexampleofapublicappointment,sincevirtuallynopublicexpenseisinvolved,therearenocurrentplanstoreformtheappointmentsystem.However,theGovernmenthasforsomeyearsworkedcloselywiththeAssociationofHighSheriVstodevelopamoreinclusiveandtransparentselectionsystem.Countiesnowhaveconsultativepanels,whichincludecommunityrepresentatives,designedtoensurethatasystematicselectionprocesscanbecarriedonwithanelementofcontinuityandconsistency.Thepanelsareencouragedtocastthenetaswidelyaspossibleandtoconsidercandidatesfromawidevarietyofbackgrounds.OverthelastfewyearstherehasbeenamarkedincreaseinthenumberofwomenSheriVsandSheriVsfromethnicminorities,buttheneedfornomineestohavesuYcientpersonalresourcesandtimetodevotetothevariouscharitableandrepresentativeactivitieswhichHighSheriVsundertakewillalwaysbeafactor.ServiceasaHighSheriVisagoodexampleofpublicservicefornorewardandatone'sownexpense.Thosenominatedwillalmostalwayshaveasigni®cantrecordofvoluntaryandcommunityworkinthecounty.Allwilldosigni®cantworkforlocalandnationalcharitiesduringtheiryearofoYce.TherearetwonationalinitiativessupportedbymostSheriVs:NationalCrimebeatwhichseekstokeepyoungpeoplefromgoingintocrimeandtheDebtCredscheme,whichaimstoimprovestandardsof®nancialliteracy,sothatpeoplearemoreawareofthedangersofdebt,howtoavoidit,andhowtocopewithit.Thesere¯ecttheSheriVs'historicroleÐnowdefunctÐaslawenforcementoYcersandcollectorsofdebts.TheSelectionofFutureHighSheriVsinEnglandandWalesTheselectionofpeoplesuitabletoserveasHighSheriVinthefutureisapersonalresponsibilityoftheservingHighSheriV.Inordertomaketheappointmentprocessmoretransparent,andtoensurethatawiderrangeofindividualsareconsideredthanperhapswasthecaseinthepast,allcountieshaveestablishedtheirowncountyconsultativepanels,toactasasoundingboardforsuggestions.Thesepanelsgenerallyconsistofaroundsixtoeightindividuals:theservingHighSheriV,immediatepastandfutureHighSheriVs;arepresentativeoftheLord-Lieutenant;andtwoorthreememberswhoarenotconnectedwiththeShrievalty,butwhononethelesshave(orhavehad)asigni®cantrolewithin,andgoodknowledgeof,thecountyor,asthecasemaybe,havespeciallinkswith,forexample,localethniccommunities.ThetaskistochoosesomeonetobecomeHighSheriVinfouryearstime;someonewhomthepanelconsidersofªstandinginthecountyº;someonewhowillperformalltherequireddutieswellandsomeonewhocanaVordthetimeand 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expenseinvolved.Thechoiceismadeentirelyonthecalibreofthepersonbeingconsidered.Oncethepanelhasidenti®edasuitablecandidate,theHighSheriVapproachesthepersoninquestion,briefsthatpersonabouttheroleoftheHighSheriVandasksthemwhetherhe/shewouldbepreparedtotakeontheOYce.TheNominationandAppointmentProcessTheHighSheriVisadirectappointmentoftheSovereignbyRoyalWarrant,andtakesoYcebymakingthestatutoryDeclarationof®delity,assetoutintheSheriVsAct1887(whichistraditionallymadewithinonemonthofappointment).On12November,eachyear(or,ifaSunday,onthefollowingday),threepersonsarenominated(theirnamesareªreadoutºbytheQueen'sRemembrancer)fortheOYceofHighSheriV,inCourt4(theLordChiefJustice'sCourt)intheRoyalCourtsofJustice,beforecertainoftheªGreatOYcersºofstate,asdirectedbytheSheriVsAct1887(Section6).ThesearetheLordChiefJustice,amemberofthePrivyCouncil(usuallyaLordJusticeofAppeal)andtwoJudgesoftheHighCourt.TheClerkofthePrivyCouncilalsoattendstowitnesstheevent.ThispracticedoesnotapplytoLancashire,GreaterManchester,MerseysideorCornwallwhere,forhistoricalreasons,theDuchiesofLancasterandCornwallhavesimilarbutindependentarrangements.InMarchofeachyeartheRollofHighSheriVsinNominationissubmittedtotheQueeninCouncilwhoªpricksºieappoints,theHighSheriVsfortheensuingyear.ThenamesarethenpublishedinTheLondonGazetteandusuallyinTheTimesandtheDailyTelegraph.ThoseappointedreceivetheirWarrantsofAppointmentfromthePrivyCouncilOYce.TheRoleoftheGovernmentintheHighSheriVAppointmentProcedureFollowingtheNovembernominationceremonyattheRoyalCourtsofJustice,theQueen'sRemembrancer'sOYce(QRO)providesthePrivyCouncilOYce(PCO)withalistofallofthenomineeswhosenameswereªreadoutº.ThePCOwritestoeachofthem,informingthemoftheirnominationtoserveasHighSheriVinthenextthreeyears.TheoYcearrangesforthelistofnomineestobepublishedinTheLondonGazetteandinthepress.AmonthorsolaterthePCOwritestotheHighSheriVinnominationfortheensuingyear,toinformthemoftheirresponsibilitytoprovidethenameofafutureHighSheriV,andprovidingaformtocompleteforthepurpose,whichtheyshouldreturntotheQRO,attheRoyalCourtsofJustice,bythefollowingJune.BeforetheMarchPrivyCouncilmeeting,theQROproducestheRollofHighSheriVs,withthenamesofallthenomineesforeachCounty,thatwerereadoutattheNovembernominationceremony,enteredontoit.AttheMarchPrivyCouncilmeeting,TheQueenªpricksºtherollnexttothenameoftheHighSheriVappointedforeachCounty.Followingthemeeting,thePCOsendseachappointedHighSheriVaWarrant.ThePCOalsoarrangesforthelistofappointeestobepublishedinTheLondonGazetteandinthepress.Background:OYceofHighSheriVTheOYceofHighSheriVistheoldestsecularOYceintheUnitedKingdomaftertheCrown,anddatesfromSaxontimes.TheexactdateoforiginisunknownbuttheOYcehascertainlyexistedforover1,000years,sincetheShireswereformed.ThewordªSheriVºderivesfromªShire-ReeveºortheAnglo-SaxonªScir-gerefaº.ProbablytheOYcederivedfromtheKing'sReevealsoknownastheªHighºReeve.ItbeganasaSaxonOYceandsomeSheriVsledcontingentsattheBattleofHastings.TheNormanscontinuedtheOYceandaddedtoitspowers,andalsotoitsrewards.Duringthe11thand12thCenturiestheSheriVs'powerswereveryextensiveand,forexample,they:Ðjudgedcasesinthemonthlycourtofthehundred(asub-unitoftheShire);ÐhadlawenforcementpowersandwouldraisetheªhueandcryºinpursuitoffelonswithintheirShire;ÐcouldsummonandcommandtheªpossecomitatusºÐthefullpoweroftheShireintheserviceoftheSovereign;ÐcollectedtaxesandleviesandallduesonCrownlandsonbehalfoftheCrown;ÐwereinchargeofCrownpropertyintheShire;andÐweretheprincipalrepresentativesandagentsfortheCrownandwereverypowerfulmenwithintheShire.Ofthe63clausesintheMagnaCartaof1215,27relatetotheroleoftheSheriV.From1254theSheriVsupervisedtheelectiontoParliamentoftwoKnightsoftheShire.Thesepowersweresteadilyerodedoversucceedingcenturies.HenryIorganisedtheExchequertotakeovertaxcollectionandalsotoaudittheSheriV'saccounts.HenryIIintroducedthesystemofItinerantJusticesfromwhichevolvedtheAssizes.TheSheriVwasresponsibleforissuingWrits,havingreadytheCourt,prisonersandjuries,andthenexecutingthesentenceswhichwerepronounced.Itwasalsothe Processed:11-09-200818:38:38PageLayout:COENEW[E]PPSysBJob:404863Unit:PAG2Ev16JusticeCommittee:Evidence SheriV'sresponsibilitytoensurethesafetyandcomfortoftheJudges.ThisistheoriginoftheHighSheriV'smoderndaydutyofcareforthewell-beingofHighCourtjudges.Inthemiddleofthe13thCentury,CoronersandJusticesofthePeacewerecreated.UndertheTudors,Lord-LieutenantswerecreatedaspersonalrepresentativesoftheSovereign.QueenElizabethIisgenerallybelievedtohaveoriginatedthepracticethatcontinuestothisdayoftheSovereignchoosingtheHighSheriVbyprickinganameontheSheriVs'rollwithabodkin.Itissaidthatshedidthiswhilstengagedinembroideryinthegarden.ThisisprobablyamythsincethereisaSheriVs'RollofthereignofHenryVII(1485±1508)wherethenamesareprickedthroughvellum.Therealreasonforprickingthroughvellumwasthatthechoicewasnotalwaysawelcomehonour.Amarkwithapensuchasatickcouldeasilybeerasedwithaknife,butaholeintheskin(vellum)couldneverberepairedorremoved.ByActsof1856and1865alltheSheriV'spowersconcerningpoliceandprisonspassedtothePrisonCommissionersandlocalConstabulary;andunderanActof1883thecareofCrownPropertywastransferredtotheCrownCommissioners.TheSheriVsAct1887consolidatedtheLawrelatingtotheOYceofHighSheriVandtheActremainsinforcetothisday.Itrepeated:thattheOYceshouldbeheldforoneyearonly;thataSheriVwhowasaMagistrateshouldnotsitassuchduringhisyearofOYce;andcon®rmedthehistoricprocessofnominationandselectionbytheSovereign.February2008 FirstsupplementarymemorandumsubmittedbytheMinistyofJusticeInformationCommissionerSpotChecksofCentralGovernmentDepartmentsIwritefollowingmyoralevidenceattheCommitteeHearingof3June2008whereIagreedtoprovidefurtherinformationaboutwhethertheInformationCommissionerhascommencedspotchecksofCentralGovernmentDepartments.OYcialsattheMinistryofJusticeareworkingcloselywiththeInformationCommissioner'sOYce(ICO)toagree®nalarrangementsforthespotchecks.TheICOisnegotiatingwiththe®rstDepartmentidenti®edforaudit,andexpecttocommencethisshortly.TheICOalsointendstocommenceatleasttwofurtherauditsbytheendoftheyear.MichaelWillsMPMinisterofStateJune2008 SecondsupplementarymemorandumsubmittedbytheMinistryofJusticeFollowupto3JuneevidencesessiononcoronerreformWhenIappearedbeforetheCommitteeon3June,Iagreedtowriteprovidingfurtherinformationonwhethercoronersaregenerallysatis®edwiththecontentsoftheCoronersandDeathCerti®cationBill,andtheroleandassociatedpowersoftheChiefCoronerinareformedsystem.Oncoroners'satisfactionwiththecontentsoftheBill,ImentionedthatIwasmeetingrepresentativesoftheCoronersSocietythefollowingday.TheyacknowledgedtheopportunitytheyhadbeengiventoengagewithmyoYcialsonthedraftingoftheBillintherunuptoitsplannedintroductionlastautumn.Severalofthepointstheyraised,includingwhattheyregardedasthemostsigni®cantpoint(inrelationtotheproposedappealssystem)werere¯ectedintheBill.However,astheBillwasneverpublished,theydidnothaveformalcon®rmationofwhathadbeenincorporated,althoughoYcialsgavethemaninformalbrie®ng.WhentheBillwascon®rmedinthedraftprogrammeforthenextsessionon14May,arrangementswerealmostimmediatelyputinplaceformeetings,duringJuneandJuly,withtheCoronersSocietytodiscussanyremainingornewconcernstheymayhave.ImadeitcleartocoronerswhomImetthatIamhappytoconsideranyfurthersuggestionstheymaymakewhichwillimprovethepracticaldeliveryoftheBill.TurningnowtotheChiefCoroner.Heorshewillhaveanumberofimportantfunctionsinrelationtoresources,performancemanagement,training,servicestobereavedfamilies,andrespondingtoappealsandcomplaints.AkeyrolewillbetoensurethedeliveryofaconsistentqualityofserviceacrossEnglandandWales,andheorshewillpushforsuYcientresourcesforcoronerareasÐaconcerncoronerscontinuetoraisewithmeÐfromlocalandpoliceauthoritieswhichdonotprovidethis.ItwouldclearlybeinappropriateforanunelectedjudicialoYcertohavepowerstodirectthatalocalauthorityprovidemoreresourcestoa 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particularpartofitsresponsibilities.However,theBillasnowdraftedplacesastatutorydutyontherelevantauthority(eitheralocalorpoliceauthority)toprovidethenecessaryoYcers(andotherstaV),andtoprovideorprocurethenecessaryaccommodation,toenablecoronerstocarryouttheirfunctions.TheseBillprovisionswillgivetheChiefCoroneralevertosupportthosecoronerswhoarehavingdiYcultieswiththeirlocalauthorities.Combinedwithhisorherroletoprovidecentraloperationalleadershiptothecoroners'service,byreallocatingworkbetweencoronerstoavoiddelaysandbacklogs,thisgivestheChiefCoronergenuineauthorityintheoverallprovisionandmanagementofresources.TheChiefCoronerwillhaveanimportantroleinsettingnationalminimumstandardsandpromotingbestpracticeacrossarangeofcoronerfunctions,bringingconsistencytothesystemacrossEnglandandWales.Intermsofservicestobereavedfamilies,theChiefCoronerwillberesponsibleforoverseeingtheoperationoftheCharterforBereavedPeopleÐadraftcopywasincludedatthebackofthedraftBill,andanupdatedversionisbeingpublishedforconsultationon18June.TheCharterwillsetouttheservicesbereavedfamiliescanexpectfromareformedserviceandtheirrightsofredress,includingthroughanewappealsystem,ifservicesarenotprovided.Speci®callyonappeals,theBillestablishesanewaccessibleappealroutetotheChiefCoroner,replacingtheexistingstatutoryprocedureofapplicationtotheHighCourt(insomecircumstancesviatheAttorneyGeneral).Interestedpersonstoaninquestwillhavetherighttoappealagainstcertaindecisionsanddeterminations(setoutintheBill)madeinconnectionwithinvestigationsandinquests.Iftheappealisallowed,theChiefCoronermay,amongstotherthings,substituteorquashthedecisionandremitthematterforafreshdecision,oramendorquashthedeterminationandorderafreshinvestigation.TheChiefCoronerwillhaveresponsibilitiesrelatingtocomplaints.Whilecomplaintsshouldinitiallybediscussedwiththecoronerconcerned,ifthecomplainantcontinuestobedissatis®ed,thenheorsheshouldbringtheirconcernstotheattentionoftheChiefCoroner.TheChiefCoronerwillhavepowertoinvestigatethecomplaintÐbutreferringcasesaboutprofessionalmisconducttotheOYceforJudicialComplaints(inlinewiththesystemenabledbytheConstitutionalReformAct2005,whichincludescoroners)Ðandtodecidewhatactionshouldbetaken.TheChiefCoronerwillalsodeterminecomplaintsfromprofessionalgroupswhointeractwithcoroners,suchasthepolice,medicalpractitionersorprosecutingauthorities.Ontraining,theChiefCoronerwillhaveresponsibilityforpreparingandmaintainingappropriatearrangementsforcoroners.TheintentionisthattheChiefCoronerwillhaveastrategicoverviewofthetrainingprogramme,andaprogrammeofrelevantcourseswillbeorganisedtoensuregoodinductionarrangementsandongoingprofessionaldevelopment.TheChiefCoronerwillalsoberesponsibleforensuringappropriatearrangementsareinplaceforprovidingtrainingandguidancetocoroner'soYcersandotherstaV.YouwillbeawarealsoofmyplanstoenhancethepublicprotectionroleofcoronersÐIwillbelayingaproposedchangetotheexistingCoronersRule43veryshortly.Inareformedsystem,theChiefCoronerwillhaveanessentialnationalco-ordinatingfunctioninensuringthatlessonslearnedfromparticulardeathsaredisseminatedwidelyandreachthoseorganisationswhichhaveresponsibilityfortakingactiontopreventdeathsfromsimilarorrelatedcauses.Finally,theChiefCoronerwillprovideavitalsourceofadviceandcounselfortheLordChancelloronmattersrelevanttotheoperationandadministrationofthecoronersystem,representingtheviewsofcoronerstohim,andthroughhim,toParliament.TheChiefCoronerwillsendanannualreporttotheLordChancellortosummariseactivitiesheorshehasundertakenduringtheyearandtodetail,amongstotherthings,thenumberofcomplaintsandappealsreceived.Thiswillprovide,forthe®rsttime,anannualsnapshotofhowthesystemisfunctioningacrossEnglandandWales.BridgetPrenticeMPParliamentaryUnder-SecretaryofStateJune2008 MemorandumsubmittedbytheAssociationofLord-LieutenantsIhavehadthebene®tofseeingthetranscriptofyourrecentevidencesessionwithMichaelWillsMP,MinisterofStateattheMinistryofJustice,aboutCrownappointmentsinthelightoftheWhitePaperontheGovernanceofBritain.IwonderwhetherImighttaketheopportunitytoclarifyoneortwomattersfromthepointofviewofthisAssociation,ofwhichallservingLord-Lieutenantsaremembersandwhichexistsforustoguideeachotheronhowtoful®lourrolesandtoprovideachannelforliaisonwiththeGovernmentandHouseholds. 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RoleofaLord-LieutenantTheLord-LieutenantisTheQueen'spersonalrepresentativeinhiscounty.AlthoughtheoYceishistoric,ourroleispracticalandexpanding.Weco-ordinateRoyalvisitsandliaisewiththeRoyalHouseholdsonanynumberofmatters.Weencouragethevoluntaryandcharitablesectors.Wepromotethehonourssystem(includingTheQueen'sAwardsforenterpriseandforvoluntaryservice)andassesscertainnominations.Wesupportthearmedforcesandtheirreserves.WechairtheLordChancellor'sAdvisoryCommitteeswhichappointmagistrates.Ourinvolvementwithgovernmentinitiativeshasmuchincreasedinrecentyears:anongoingcommitmentisthatweconductcitizenshipceremonies;aone-oVexampleishowweshallbehelpingtheOYceforNationalStatisticstoencouragehard-to-reachcommunitiestocompletethenextcensus.Theappointmentisthusfarfromaceremonialone.EveryLieutenancyishoweverdiVerent(geography;populationdensity;economyetc)andthesuccessoftheroledependsoneachLord-LieutenanthavingthediscretiontorunhisLieutenancyashethinks®t.ForthatreasonIwouldbereluctanttodrawcomparisonsofactivitybetweenLieutenanciesassuggestedintheevidencesession.AppointmentProcessItcouldbeinferredfromthetranscriptthatthisAssociation,andLord-Lieutenantsasindividuals,areinvolvedintheappointmentsprocessforLord-Lieutenants.Thisisnotthecase.TheQueenappointsHerLord-LieutenantsonadvicefromthePrimeMinisterandweexpectthistoremainthecaseaftertheimplementationoftheGovernanceofBritain.Untilnow,thePrimeMinister'sSecretaryforAppointmentshascarriedouttheconsultationsastowhomshouldbeappointed.TheAppointmentsSecretaryhasalwaysconsultedtheretiringLord-Lieutenantbutonlyaspartofamuchwiderconsultation;andtheLord-Lieutenanthasnomorein¯uencethananyoneelse.TheLieutenancydrawsmuchstrengthfromthissystemandwewelcometheauthoritywhichselectionbythePrimeMinister'soYcehasgivenusinourcounties.ThatwehavebeenrecommendedtoTheQueenbythePrimeMinisterfollowingaprocessoverwhichhehaspersonalcontrolhashelpedeachofustoestablishourgroundandauthoritylocally:ourproximitytothePrimeMinister'soYceincreasesoureVectiveness.Inmyowncase,IwasappointedonJimCallaghan'srecommendation,whichhasalwaysstoodmeinverygoodstead.BothJohnMajorandTonyBlairnudgedthetilleronthecharacterofpersonappointedLord-Lieutenant.TheirinterestandchangeshavehelpedtopreservetheutilityofouroYce,continuingitsdevelopmentasarealroleinsupportoftheCrown.ItisunlikelythatthisrefreshmentwouldhavehappenedaswellorassensitivelyiftheappointmentsprocesshadnotbeensodirectlyandcloselyconnectedwiththePrimeMinisterhimself.IwrotetothePrimeMinisterinFebruarytosetouttheAssociation'shopesforthecharacteristicsofasystemtoreplacetheAppointmentsSecretaryinthelightofhisintentiontoabolishthatoYce.HerepliedinApriltooVermeadiscussionwithhisPermanentSecretarybutthatdiscussionhasnotyettakenplace.DiversityYouspentsometimeinyourevidencesessionconsideringtheissueofdiversityinLieutenancyappointments.AsIhavesaid,theAssociationisnotitselfinvolvedinappointmentsbutIthinkthat,ifyoucomparedthebackgroundsofthoseappointedoverthelast10yearswiththepreviousdecade,youwould®ndthattheGovernmenthaveabettertaletotellthanyoumightassume:abroadrangeofbusiness,publicandvoluntaryservicebackgroundsandinterests;agreatredressinthenumberofwomen.Inthiscontext,theevidencesessionrightlyraisedtheissueofthecostofbeingaLord-Lieutenant.(Ishould®rstsaythatshireLieutenanciesreceiveexcellentadministrativesupportfromtheirlocalauthorities:thechiefexecutiveisusuallyappointedclerkoftheLieutenancy.Thisisbothcost-eVectiveforcentralGovernmentandpracticallyeYcientbecauseitconnectstheLord-Lieutenanttoatremendousinformationnetwork.)Wearenot,andwouldnotwanttobe,paid:ourtimemustbegivenvoluntarily.Itishoweverthecasethat,astheGovernmentbroadenthesocialpoolfromwhichwearedrawn,Lord-Lieutenantsarenolongerableorwillingpersonallytosubsidisethecostofperformingtheirduties.Aschemeforthereimbursementofexpensessuchasmileage,drivers,1personalsecretarialsupportandthemaintenanceofouruniformsisinstrumentaltothepracticalsuccessoftheGovernment'spolicyofdiversifyingLieutenancyappointments.TheMinistryofJusticeadministersjustsuchareimbursementscheme,butitisoutofdate.TheMinistryisabouttoupratecertainoftheseallowancesafterarequestImadeinMarch2007(the®rstforalongtime).IamgratefulfortheMinistry'sattention,especiallyatatimewhendepartmentalbudgetsareunderever-tighterconstraints.ButtheMinistryhasnotbeenabletorespondtoourrequestinfull;norhavetheyyetbeenabletomakeprovisionforfutureannualconsultationand,ifnecessary,revision.ThisisincontrasttotheadmirablearrangementsputinplacebyHerMajesty'sCourtsServiceforthereimbursementofmagistrates'expenses.Ihopeyoumightagreethataproperandup-to-dateschemeof 1YoumightthinkaclaimfordriversoutofdatebutLord-Lieutenantsareregularlycalledupontoactinuniformanditbothcausespracticalinconvenienceandreducestheimpactoftheirarrivalanddeparturewhenforcedbyeconomytodrivethemselves.Whetherornotinuniform,Lord-Lieutenantsarealsoregularlyondutyatnight,oftenfarfromhome(afewcanhavetotravelupto260mileswithintheirLieutenancy),anditisinouropinionunwiseandundesirableforthoseintheirseventies,especiallywomen,tohavetodrivethemselvesonsuchoccasions. Processed:11-09-200818:38:38PageLayout:COENEW[O]PPSysBJob:404863Unit:PAG2JusticeCommittee:EvidenceEv19 reimbursementexpensesisvitaltothesuccessoftheLieutenancy,especiallyifthePrimeMinisteristocontinuetorecommendforappointmentpeoplewhoarenotonlyabletomaintainthedignityoftheirhistoricoYcerepresentingTheQueen,butareabletotakethatoYceforwardwithcontinuedrelevance.SirThomasDunneKG,KCVOJune2008 MemorandumsubmittedbytheAssociationofHighSheriVsofEnglandandWales1.TheAssociationofHighSheriVsofEnglandandWaleshasnotedtheevidencerelatingtotheappointmentofHighSheriVsgivenbeforetheCommitteeon3June(Q26toQ45intheuncorrectedtranscriptpublishedontheCommittee'swebsite).TheAssociationbelievesitwouldbehelpfultotheCommitteeifitweretoprovidethefollowingbackgroundinformationontheappointmentofHighSheriVs.2.HighSheriVsinEnglandandWales(knowncollectivelyasªtheShrievaltyº)areappointedbyHerMajestyfollowingnominationinaccordancewiththeprovisionsoftheSheriVsAct1887.ThatActprovidesthatthereshallbeaHighSheriVforeachCounty,whoistoserveforayear;andthatthenominationsaretobemadebycertainªGreatOYcersofStateº.Themodernnominationceremonytakesplaceon12NovembereveryyearandispresidedoverbytheLordChiefJusticeandtwootherjudges.ThisceremonyisorganisedbytheQueen'sRemembrancer(theSeniorMasterforthetimebeingoftheQueen'sBenchDivisionoftheHighCourt).FollowingthenominationceremonythenamesaresenttothePrivyCouncilOYce,whicharrangeforthemtobepresentedtoHerMajestyinCouncilforapprovalinMarch.ThenewSheriVsthentakeupoYceinApril.SeparatearrangementsapplytothesheriVsintheDuchiesofLancasterandCornwall(Lancashire,GreaterManchester,MerseysideandCornwall).3.ThenamesofthoseregardedassuitabletoserveasHighSheriVareprovidedtotheQueen'sRemembrancereveryyearbytheincumbentSheriV.ThereisnonationalselectionmechanismforHighSheriVs:thearrangementsarepurelylocal.Giventhefactthat54nameshavetobeselectedeveryyearanynationalmechanismwouldbeafulltimeprocesswhichintheAssociation'sviewwouldbebeyondthecurrentresourcesofeitherThePrivyCouncilOYceortheQueen'sRemembrancer'sOYce.ThepositiondiVersfromthatofLord-Lieutenants,whererelativelyfewnewappointmentsarerequiredeveryyear,andtheprocesscanbeundertakencentrally.TheLordPresidentoftheCouncildoes,however,takesoundingsoftheLord-LieutenantofeachCountytoensurethatthereisnoreasonwhyanindividualwhohasbeennominatedasHighSheriVshouldnotserve.4.TheAssociationisconsciousthatthisprocessdoesnotre¯ectnormalpracticeforpublicappointments,buthasjoinedwiththePrivyCouncilOYcetoseektoensurethattheprocessisasopenaspossible,andthatitdrawsfromaswideapoolaspossible.Thereareanumberoffactorswhichneedtobetakenintoaccount,includingthefollowing:(a)TheroleofHighSheriVisunremunerated,andtheexpensesoftheOYceareborneentirelybytheholder.NoHighSheriVgainsanypersonalmonetarybene®tfromserving:theoppositeistrue.(b)AlmosteverystatutoryresponsibilityofHighSheriVshasnowbeeneitherrepealedortransferredtootherbodiesorindividuals.TheroleoftheHighSheriVisceremonialandrepresentative.ThisroleisnonethelesshighlyvaluedinCounties,especiallybycharitiesandvoluntaryorganisationswhichbene®tfromtheworkHighSheriVsdotosupportthem,andbymanyothergroups.TwoinparticulararenewBritonswhoseCitizenshipCeremoniesaremadespecialbytheattendanceoflocaldignitaries,includingHighSheriVs;andpeoplewhoarerewardedbytheCourtsforbraveryinhelpingtoapprehendcriminals,andwhoreceivetheirrewardandrecognitionatpublicceremoniesconductedbytheHighSheriV.HighSheriVsalsosupporttheworkofpublicservicessuchasthePolice,FireandAmbulanceservicesoftencontributingsigni®cantlytolocalinitiativeswhichpromotecrimeprevention.HighSheriVsaregenerallyveryeVectiveatbuildingbridgesbetweendiVerentgroupsandworkingconstructivelywithstatutorybodiesandvoluntaryorganisations.(c)TherequirementtoappointHighSheriVsannuallyforeachCountyandtheappointmentsprocesscouldbechangedonlythroughprimarylegislation.5.AgainstthisbackgrounditneedstoberecognisedthattheAssociationhasworkedtowidenaccesstothepostofHighSheriV,recognisingthatthelackofanykindofremunerationwill,inevitably,limitthe®eldtothosewhohavethenecessaryresources,bothofmoneyandtime,todevotetotheappointment,andthattheinfrastructureneededforacentralisedappointmentsystemwouldrequireconsiderablepublicfundswhichareunlikelytobeforthcoming.6.TheAssociationhaslongrecognisedthatthediversityoftheShrievaltyisapotentialsourceofcriticism.Ratherthanadoptingadefensiveattitudeithasputmuchworkintotacklinghead-onthequestionofaccess,whichis,intheAssociation'sview,theonlyareawhichcouldbeseentodetractfromtherealgoodthatHighSheriVsdo.ThereisnostatutorypowertoallowtheGovernmentÐoranyoneelseÐtotakeovertheHighSheriVs'roleofselectingfuturecandidatesfornomination,soimprovementstothesystemhavetobebyagreement.AgainstthisbackgrounditisaconsiderableachievementthatallCounties,withthe 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encouragementoftheGovernmentandtheAssociation,haveestablishedconsultativepanels,whosejobistoidentifysuitablecandidatesfromaswideapoolaspossible,alwaysrecognisingtheconstraintsalreadydescribed.Overthepasttenyearstherehasbeenamarkedincreaseinthenumberofnominationsofpeoplefromnon-traditionalbackgrounds.TheAssociationwishestoseethiscontinuing,andisalwayshappytoconsiderconstructivesuggestionsastohowthesystemcanbeimproved,giventhatitwillalwayshavetorelyonpeoplegivingtheirtimewhollyvoluntarily.7.TheAssociationdoesnotseektodefendtheShrievaltypurelyonthegroundsthatitistheoldestestablishedsecularpublicoYce.ThatwouldbenodefenceiftheShrievaltywereperformingnousefulfunctionandwasadrainonthepublicpurse.ButtheHighSheriVshavecreatedaroleforthemselvesinthemodernworldwhichdoesanimmenseamountofgood,andwhichispopular.MostpeoplethinkitisagoodthingthattheirCountyhasaHighSheriV.Somehavehigherpro®lesthanothers,butallofthemputin,attheirownexpense,ayear'sveryhardworkwhich,acrossEnglandandWales,touchesthelivesofmillionsofpeople,andwhichcoststheStatenothing.HighSheriVshaveoftenraisedsubstantialsumsforgoodcauses.TheyhavesupportedanynumberofvoluntaryorganisationsandencouragedpositivenetworkingwithintheirCountiesbetweenthestatutoryandvoluntarysectors.Abovealltheydothisinanon-political,non-confrontationalandwhollyconstructiveway.TheAssociationbelievesthatthisisagenuineexampleofvoluntarypublicservicewhichwouldrenderthecountrypoorerifitweretobediscontinued.Atatimewhenvolunteeringisarealissuewithmanyvoluntaryorganisations®ndingitincreasinglydiYculttoattractindividualstogiveoftheirtime,theOYceofHighSheriVshowsthattherearestillcompetentanddedicatedpeoplewhoarepreparedtodevotetime,moneyandgoodwilltoencouragingworthyinitiativesintheirCountiesandthussetanexample.8.OurAssociationwillcontinuetoworkwithanyonewhowishestohelptoensurethatasmanypeopleaspossiblehavetheopportunitytoparticipateintheworkthatHighSheriVsdo.AnnexedtothismemorandumisacopyofourGuidetotheOYceofHighSheriV.Thispublicationoutlinesthedutiesandresponsibilitiesoftheroleasourmembersseeitinthe21stcentury.June2008 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